Douglas G. Danforth wrote:
http://slashdot.org/ had a recent article about the MIT project "One Laptop Per Child" (see http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Human_Interface_Guidelines)
The biggest single wiki 'page' I've seen so far, with quite some in depth work on the subject. And they've also recognised the power of the wiki format.
In that documentation the following caught my attention since this aspect is similar to Dr. Wirth's design for Oberon. Is anyone at ETHZ interacting with the MIT group on OLPC?
"Simplicity We designed the entire laptop interface with a goal of simplicity. ---snip --
I've been watching OLPC closely, because I've been on the mailing list of the simputer for years. Simputer apparently failed. IMO because it didn't build a user base. The idea of collaborating freely, was apparently too strange for the Indian based community. OTOH I think its basic idea was more valid that MIT's OLPC, which I fear doesn't solve the power-supply problem. OLPC_Human_Interface_Guidelines sounds good and I think some of its ideas will go into other products. But the original idea of villagers who are 100 km from mains electricity having computer access seems likely to fail. == Chris Glur.
On 12/13/06, easlab@absamail.co.za <easlab@absamail.co.za> wrote:
OLPC_Human_Interface_Guidelines sounds good and I think some of its ideas will go into other products. But the original idea of villagers who are 100 km from mains electricity having computer access seems likely to fail.
Do those same villagers have cell phones? -- -- Aubrey McIntosh, Ph.D.
-----Original Message----- From: oberon-bounces@lists.inf.ethz.ch [mailto:oberon-bounces@lists.inf.ethz.ch] On Behalf Of Aubrey.McIntosh@Alumni.UTexas.Net Sent: 13 December 2006 15:06 To: ETH Oberon and related systems Subject: Re: [Oberon] Re. OLPC - One Laptop Per Child
On 12/13/06, easlab@absamail.co.za <easlab@absamail.co.za> wrote:
OLPC_Human_Interface_Guidelines sounds good and I think some of its ideas will go into other products. But the original
idea of villagers
who are 100 km from mains electricity having computer access seems likely to fail.
Do those same villagers have cell phones?
Many of them don't even have easy access to clean water and basic healthcare, and their children don't have classrooms or pencils or paper. Quite what they're expected to do with a PC is beyond me. Bob
--- Bob Walkden <bob@web-options.com> wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: oberon-bounces@lists.inf.ethz.ch [mailto:oberon-bounces@lists.inf.ethz.ch] On Behalf Of Aubrey.McIntosh@Alumni.UTexas.Net Sent: 13 December 2006 15:06 To: ETH Oberon and related systems Subject: Re: [Oberon] Re. OLPC - One Laptop Per Child
On 12/13/06, easlab@absamail.co.za <easlab@absamail.co.za> wrote:
OLPC_Human_Interface_Guidelines sounds good and
I think some of
its ideas will go into other products. But the original idea of villagers who are 100 km from mains electricity having computer access seems likely to fail.
Do those same villagers have cell phones?
Many of them don't even have easy access to clean water and basic healthcare, and their children don't have classrooms or pencils or paper. Quite what they're expected to do with a PC is beyond me.
Bob
And yet many do have access to cell phones, electricity, computers ect. Check out this website. http://www.kiva.org There people in 3rd world countries (many of them African) sign up for micro loans. These loans have a 99% repayment rate. And yes, they sign up themselves over the internet. Suprised? Internet access is not that uncommon in poor countries, although most use cybercafes. (And yes, some abuse this which is why we get so much Nigerian "Help me recover the former dictators billions" spam.) As for pencils and paper, this could actually help alievate that. Countries have to spend money buying new pencils and paper every year. And textbooks go out of date. The main issue would be would they get enough from the technology to justify the initial expense? I think the average American child with a laptop does more with MySpace than anything else. But the inclusion of Squeakland is promising as it encourages end user programming. As Papert once said "We should teach kids to use computers rather than teaching computers to use kids". As for the clean water deal, there's an easy way to make a water filter using nothing more than clay, coffee grounds and some cow dung. Perhaps someday some child in a poor country may run across this information on a laptop. ;) http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1381331.htm Regards, John M. Drake ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Hi everyone, This is a very interesting discussion. I think Oberon would be a great tool for teaching computer science on low-end hardware platforms like OLPC. My brother is a professor the University of Oregon who has spent many years working in places like Sierra Leone and Malawi. Here were his comments when I forwarded him this thread and asked him what he thought about OLPC. Ivan... Hi Ivan-- yes, I had heard about this idea. I feel sort of torn: I do think there's a lot that could be done by giving people in remote areas of Africa (or elsewhere) access to the Internet. The guy who can't think of what people in an African village would do with a laptop seems to lack imagination: for example, there are millions of people in rural Africa who have no access to schools or colleges who would love to take online distance education courses to get a degree. Or they could use it to find out how to treat diseases, or predict the weather (very important for farmers), or to apply for jobs. On the other hand many of them really do have more immediate priorities-- like getting enough food to eat, medicine, clothing, etc. I guarantee that if free laptops were given out, immediately three quarters of the laptops would be sold for a bag of corn or rice and some beans, or for medicine to help an ailing relative. The people who would benefit would be the ones who are already relatively well-off. We think of rural Africans as being uniformly poor, but it's not true: there are people who are relatively wealthy (e.g. they have a house with a tin roof instead of a grass roof). For those with some money and who are educated enough to even to know how to use a laptop, this would be great. And, yes, those people DO have cell phones. But for about 9/10th of people in rural villages in Africa, however, the priorities are still food, medicine, shelter. If Americans want to give Africans laptops, they should also help to provide education and income-earning opportunities (health care, etc.) so that people know how to use the laptops and don't have to sell them for a bag of corn. --Peter
Hi, yes - an interesting discussion.
Internet. The guy who can't think of what people in an African village would do with a laptop seems to lack imagination:
Well, an internet connection in every village is a very different proposition from one laptop per child, which is what baffles me. I have also spent quite a lot of time travelling in different parts of Africa, mainly Ethiopia, and several other developing countries. I've even used some of those internet cafes, and I believe I have perhaps a more realistic view than most Westerners about people's living conditions there. Your brother's closing point is certainly the most accurate in my opinion:
have cell phones. But for about 9/10th of people in rural villages in Africa, however, the priorities are still food, medicine, shelter. If Americans want to give Africans laptops, they should also help to provide education and income-earning opportunities (health care, etc.) so that people know how to use the laptops and don't have to sell them for a bag of corn.
Otherwise it all sounds rather like 'let them eat cake'. -- Regards, Bob
A few points to consider. First the OLPC project isn't ONLY aimed at Africa. India and China are two of the fastest growing economy in the world. Second, according to the FAQ, they aren't going to just show up on the back of a U.N. food truck and start handing out laptops to kids with bloated stomachs. The plan is to SELL laptops to countries who will then distribute them to schools. Its safe to assume that the laptop will remain the property of the local schools. While there's still the possiblity of theft and corruption, it still reduces the probability (in some countries anyway) that they'll be traded for a "bag of corn". Finally this really needs to be looked at as an "appropriate technology hardware" project more so than a "charity" project. Like I said, they're SELLING the machines. And frankly, at $100 I'd buy one myself. (Though it doesn't look like they will initially be available for personal sale.) Have you ever gone to a toy store and looked at "children's computers"? They're usually over priced crappy hardware for which you can only buy overpriced crappy software. Sure, there's the option of buying an old laptop, reformatting the harddisk and installing Linux, but most of the ones available for $100 are usually so worn out that they need to be junked. Earlier Chris Glur mentioned the apparent failure of the Simputer. While it looks to me like the Simputer is still alive it, it certainly hasn't taken off. One of the reasons cited by Wikipedia is the perception that it was a "poor mans computer" and slow adoption by government and NGO agencies. Anyway, I personally don't think it would be bad if some OLPCs and/or Simputers found there way to the open markets of Nairobi. I think they could be usefull for example to legitimate businessmen who now use Internet cafes. Even without a connection at their own home they could answer emails offline and upload them when connected and save on connection charges. Just an idea. Regards, John M. Drake --- Bob Walkden <bob@web-options.com> wrote:
Hi,
yes - an interesting discussion.
Internet. The guy who can't think of what people in an African village would do with a laptop seems to lack imagination:
Well, an internet connection in every village is a very different proposition from one laptop per child, which is what baffles me.
I have also spent quite a lot of time travelling in different parts of Africa, mainly Ethiopia, and several other developing countries. I've even used some of those internet cafes, and I believe I have perhaps a more realistic view than most Westerners about people's living conditions there. Your brother's closing point is certainly the most accurate in my opinion:
have cell phones. But for about 9/10th of people in rural villages in Africa, however, the priorities are still food, medicine, shelter. If Americans want to give Africans laptops, they should also help to provide education and income-earning opportunities (health care, etc.) so that people know how to use the laptops and don't have to sell them for a bag of corn.
Otherwise it all sounds rather like 'let them eat cake'.
-- Regards, Bob
-- Oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon
____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited
On Thursday 14 December 2006 15:01, John Drake wrote:
more so than a "charity" project. Like I said, they're SELLING the machines. And frankly, at $100 I'd buy one myself.
If you can scratch together US$100 in disposable income for such a device, that doesn't mean that a waif in the third world has any realistic chance of accumulating that much money in its entire lifetime. Maslow's hierarchy of needs provides some perspective. Arnim.
--- Arnim Littek <arnim@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
On Thursday 14 December 2006 15:01, John Drake wrote:
more so than a "charity" project. Like I said, they're SELLING the machines. And frankly, at $100 I'd buy one myself.
If you can scratch together US$100 in disposable income for such a device, that doesn't mean that a waif in the third world has any realistic chance of accumulating that much money in its entire lifetime. Maslow's hierarchy of needs provides some perspective.
Arnim. --
And if you snip out all relevant points that address your point you can repost something that's already been answered. :) Not to sound "snippy" but let's put back some of what you snipped out. 1) This isn't just targetted at Africa. China and India are two of the fastest growing economies in the world. 2) The MIT plan is to sell the laptops to governments who could then distribute them to schools. So it's not up to a "waif child to scrape up $100." 3) Despite stereotypes to the contrary, there are people in these countries that actually HAVE the money and can make use of an inexpensive laptop. I gave you the link earlier to http://www.kiva.org. That sight is geared to entreprenuers in some of the poorest countries in the world who use the site to procure microloans. Typically such people have to pay money to access computers at Internet cafes. If they could somehow work "offline" then upload their work the laptop might pay for itself sooner than you might thing. These entreprenuers often take out loans of $100 to $500 dollars, but completely pay them back in a matter of months. So please drop the straw man tunnel vision. Yes, everyone knows that a "waif" living ANYWHERE (even in America) is unlikely to scrape up $100 to buy a laptop. But nobody is proposing that. Regards, John M. Drake ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
And if you snip out all relevant points that address your point you can repost something that's already been answered. :) Not to sound "snippy" but let's put back some of what you snipped out.
1) This isn't just targetted at Africa. China and India are two of the fastest growing economies in the world.
2) The MIT plan is to sell the laptops to governments who could then distribute them to schools. So it's not up to a "waif child to scrape up $100."
3) Despite stereotypes to the contrary, there are people in these countries that actually HAVE the money and can make use of an inexpensive laptop. I gave you the link earlier to http://www.kiva.org. That sight is geared to entreprenuers in some of the poorest countries in the world who use the site to procure microloans. Typically such people have to pay money to access computers at Internet cafes. If they could somehow work "offline" then upload their work the laptop might pay for itself sooner than you might thing. These entreprenuers often take out loans of $100 to $500 dollars, but completely pay them back in a matter of months.
So please drop the straw man tunnel vision. Yes, everyone knows that a "waif" living ANYWHERE (even in America) is unlikely to scrape up $100 to buy a laptop. But nobody is proposing that.
How many school age children are there in India? Multiply that number by $100- and that's how much money you're asking the Indian government to scrape up without even considering the additional costs of distribution and maintenance. This is in a country with 35% illiteracy according to the 2001 census. OLPC may be a noble vision, but it sounds naïve to me. What is their current budget of India for basic primary school education? What are the priorities of the Indian government in this respect? Basic literacy, basic healthcare or laptops for children? India at least is a democracy. How about China? This is a country with a despicable government which for all intents and purposes enslaves its people. How much do they spend on education and healthcare for every child? What's their motivation for buying a laptop for every child? Bob
--- Bob Walkden <bob@web-options.com> wrote:
How many school age children are there in India? Multiply that number by $100- and that's how much money you're asking the Indian government to scrape up without even considering the additional costs of distribution and maintenance. This is in a country with 35% illiteracy according to the 2001 census.
And how much money does the Indian government spend per year per child on textbooks? I know a local high school that quit using textbooks and went strictly laptops. So you have to factor in cost savings along with extra costs. Also I'm sure you've heard of the term "pilot project." Often new technologies get "early adopted" in certain schools to see if the benifits outweigh the costs. So the idea isn't dependant upon one country buying laptops for every child in a single year.
OLPC may be a noble vision, but it sounds naïve to me. What is their current budget of India for basic primary school education? What are the priorities of the Indian government in this respect? Basic literacy, basic healthcare or laptops for children?
Your zero sum analysis ignores the fact that laptops, used correctly, could actually HELP with the litteracy issue. And again it's pilot projects. You ignore the cost of textbooks, the potential benifits of the laptop for aiding in the education task, and then present of the false choice of "fighting illiteracy versus laptop". That would be like saying "why should the neighborhood health clinic invest in a mammogram machine instead of spending money to fight breast cancer?"
India at least is a democracy. How about China? This is a country with a despicable government which for all intents and purposes enslaves its people. How much do they spend on education and healthcare for every child? What's their motivation for buying a laptop for every child?
Not everyone in China is enslaved. With the (ill conceived in my opinion) "one child" policy many kids are actually being spoiled by doting parents and grandparents. While I'm not heralding that as necessarily a good thing, the point is that there are a lot of kids who's parents could easily afford the $100. As for motivation for the government, China has as much motivation to invest in its people as anyone else. Visit any major university in the U.S. and look at the graduate program in any of the sciences. Typically many if not MOST of the PhD candidates will be from mainland China. Some will stay in the U.S. Some will go back. China is a brutal dictatorship for sure, but they are now a capitalist brutal dictatorship with their eyes set firmly on having a manned presence in space. So if the laptop program might help better educate their children then the Chinese have EVERY motivation to push the idea. Of course any laptop sold in China will have to have the "Great Firewall of China" preinstalled. Finally, this will be my last post on the "merits" of the idea. Whether you or I or anyone else on this lists things its a good idea is really irrelevant. (Unless there's someone here who works at MIT.) This is really becoming a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" discussion. The idea may sell, it may not. But what advantage can the Oberon community make of it? Unless more progress is made on LinAOS and unless some more compelling apps are written the answer is not much. So I'm going to get back to work on the app I'm developing. Everyone can chime in on their opinion about why they think OLPC is a good idea, but nobody can tell me how to get a ListGrid to display right the first time. Never mind. I've figured it out for myself. Regards, John M. Drake ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Johh, Great references! -Doug John Drake wrote:
--- Bob Walkden <bob@web-options.com> wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: oberon-bounces@lists.inf.ethz.ch [mailto:oberon-bounces@lists.inf.ethz.ch] On
Behalf Of
Aubrey.McIntosh@Alumni.UTexas.Net Sent: 13 December 2006 15:06 To: ETH Oberon and related systems Subject: Re: [Oberon] Re. OLPC - One Laptop Per
Child
On 12/13/06, easlab@absamail.co.za
<easlab@absamail.co.za> wrote:
OLPC_Human_Interface_Guidelines sounds good and
I think some of
its ideas will go into other products. But the
original
idea of villagers
who are 100 km from mains electricity having
computer access seems
likely to fail.
Do those same villagers have cell phones?
Many of them don't even have easy access to clean water and basic healthcare, and their children don't have classrooms or pencils or paper. Quite what they're expected to do with a PC is beyond me.
Bob
And yet many do have access to cell phones, electricity, computers ect. Check out this website.
There people in 3rd world countries (many of them African) sign up for micro loans. These loans have a 99% repayment rate. And yes, they sign up themselves over the internet. Suprised? Internet access is not that uncommon in poor countries, although most use cybercafes. (And yes, some abuse this which is why we get so much Nigerian "Help me recover the former dictators billions" spam.)
As for pencils and paper, this could actually help alievate that. Countries have to spend money buying new pencils and paper every year. And textbooks go out of date.
The main issue would be would they get enough from the technology to justify the initial expense? I think the average American child with a laptop does more with MySpace than anything else. But the inclusion of Squeakland is promising as it encourages end user programming. As Papert once said "We should teach kids to use computers rather than teaching computers to use kids".
As for the clean water deal, there's an easy way to make a water filter using nothing more than clay, coffee grounds and some cow dung. Perhaps someday some child in a poor country may run across this information on a laptop. ;)
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1381331.htm
Regards,
John M. Drake
____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon
participants (7)
-
Arnim Littek -
Aubrey.McIntosh＠Alumni.UTexas.Net -
Bob Walkden -
Douglas G. Danforth -
easlab＠absamail.co.za -
Ivan Pulleyn -
John Drake