Doug Danforth <danforth@greenwoodfarm.com> is having problems getting any version of Native Oberon to work on his machine. We are now systematically trying to trace the problem. Since this might be of interest to others, and others may want to contribute with their experiences, I'm taking the discussion to the mailing list. To recap, Doug said (speaking of the Oberon-0 boot diskette):
Under both V2.3.6 and Alpha no cursor appears on my screen. (I believe under some other version of Native I had a red cursor which now I can not reproduce).
And I asked: That probably means booting did not work out. We should concentrate on finding out why. What exactly do you see after booting the Alpha version of Oberon-0? If you don't have a visible cursor, what do you see in the System.Log? Do the Oberon tracks even appear, or is the screen just black? To which he replied:
Yes, the tracks do appear. The system track is as expected and the user track is all grey. There simply is no cursor and the keyboard does not seem to do anything.
And now we are "live" again with this email... (BTW we've decided to concentrate on the Alpha version). These are startup commands in Oberon-0 (from Install.Oberon.Text in Alpha/Build/Build.zip), one of them is apparently hanging: { System.OpenLog } { System.Open Install.Tool } { UsbSystem.Start } { UsbMouse.Init } { UsbKeyboard.Init } { ConfigInput.WatchMouse 3 } { Config.Oberon0 on } My guess would be one of the Usb commands, since the first two commands have apparently been executed (you see the log and Install.Tool in the system track), and the last two are quite harmless. When it is hanging, do the NumLock/CapsLock keys toggle the corresponding LEDs? If not, keyboard interrupts are probably not working. If the LEDs work, try Ctrl-Break (once or twice) and let us know what the resulting trap viewer says. This should show us which command above is hanging.
Yes, I used the same diskette. I can not reproduce the results of Partitions.Show for 2.3.6 because it now traps (which is what it has always done except for that one time).
Ok, let's ignore 2.3.6.
Warning: Logical drive chain points to sector without partition table.
This is potentially a problem, but we need more information from Oberon itself. If you answer the questions above we can proceed.
Ok (see above) So why should I have a working ME system that does not complain and yet partinfo doesn't like it?
The primary partition table format is quite old (DOS 2.0?) and the extended partition table format also (DOS 3.0?). These formats were never very well documented by Microsoft (especially in earlier years), so a lot of the information about them is based on folklore collected over the years. Therefore different programs often make different assumptions about what the tables should look like. This is especially a problem with the extended partition table and logical drives, which have a relatively tricky nested linked list structure. partinfo is probably being conservative, and ME not.
I have *not* systematically tried every combination. I have tried explicitly setting PS2=1 and also MouseType=0 thru 6 but to no avail.
With the Alpha version it is not really necessary to configure the mouse beforehand using OBL config strings. Paul Reed modified the post-2.3.6 Input module to detect the mouse automatically and this is successful in most cases. The "ConfigInput.WatchMouse 3" command in the Oberon-0 startup is a fall-back for the rare case where the autodetection fails. It installs a task that "watches" the mouse cursor for 3 seconds. If any movement is detected, the task prints "Mouse movement detected" and terminates. If not, it prints "Press Shift to configure mouse" and when the SHIFT key is pressed, it calls the ConfigMouse.SelectMouse command, which allows manual cycling through the mouse drivers and ports with the keyboard. To conclude, once we have the answer to the questions about the keyboard LEDs and Ctrl-Break above, we can continue. -- Pieter -- Pieter Muller, Computer Systems Institute, ETH Zurich / MCT Lab, Zurich Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/
Folks & Peter, My machine is a standard COMPAQ machine (1200MHz) with 80GB IDE hard drive and a second 3 GB drive on which I hope to load Native & Bluebottle. muller@inf.ethz.ch wrote:
Doug Danforth <danforth@greenwoodfarm.com> is having problems getting any version of Native Oberon to work on his machine. We are now systematically trying to trace the problem. Since this might be of interest to others, and others may want to contribute with their experiences, I'm taking the discussion to the mailing list.
To recap, Doug said (speaking of the Oberon-0 boot diskette):
Under both V2.3.6 and Alpha no cursor appears on my screen. (I believe under some other version of Native I had a red cursor which now I can not reproduce).
And I asked: That probably means booting did not work out. We should concentrate on finding out why. What exactly do you see after booting the Alpha version of Oberon-0? If you don't have a visible cursor, what do you see in the System.Log? Do the Oberon tracks even appear, or is the screen just black?
To which he replied:
Yes, the tracks do appear. The system track is as expected and the user track is all grey. There simply is no cursor and the keyboard does not seem to do anything.
And now we are "live" again with this email... (BTW we've decided to concentrate on the Alpha version).
These are startup commands in Oberon-0 (from Install.Oberon.Text in Alpha/Build/Build.zip), one of them is apparently hanging:
{ System.OpenLog } { System.Open Install.Tool } { UsbSystem.Start } { UsbMouse.Init } { UsbKeyboard.Init } { ConfigInput.WatchMouse 3 } { Config.Oberon0 on }
My guess would be one of the Usb commands, since the first two commands have apparently been executed (you see the log and Install.Tool in the system track), and the last two are quite harmless.
When it is hanging, do the NumLock/CapsLock keys toggle the corresponding LEDs?
No, they don't toggle. First time: Booting from diskette with Alpha on it. COMPAQ logo appears and then the numlock LED comes on and stays on. Then OBERON booting... followed by colored boarders and finally the system track. Nothing happens when any of the numlock, shiftlock, or scroll lock keys are pressed. Second attempt: Reboot but this time just after the numlock LED comes on I press scroll lock which does toggle its LED at this time. The OBL> prompt then appears. At this point all LED *can* be toggled by their corresponding keys. Parameter settings to the OBL> prompt can then be performed. Pressing OBL>c and letting process continue gives nothing different from "First time", i.e. lights do not toggle at appearance of system track. Third attempt: Reboot but when numlock LED comes on toggle it off and no other change. Let process run until system track appears. Same response as with "First time". Lights do *not* toggle at this point.
If not, keyboard interrupts are probably not working. If the LEDs work, try Ctrl-Break (once or twice) and let us know what the resulting trap viewer says. This should show us which command above is hanging.
No effect from Ctrl-Break.
To conclude, once we have the answer to the questions about the keyboard LEDs and Ctrl-Break above, we can continue.
-- Pieter
Ok, so between the OBL> prompt and load completion the keyboad interrupts seem to be corrupted. I have a printout of the Configuration strings that can be entered at the OBL> prompt. It should be noted that my *keyboard* is connected to a USB port and my *mouse* to a round connector. So my hypothesis is that, indeed, the USB driver may be failing. Now what? -Doug
"Douglas G. Danforth" wrote:
It should be noted that my *keyboard* is connected to a USB port and my *mouse* to a round connector.
So my hypothesis is that, indeed, the USB driver may be failing. Now what?
For those who care, here is a dump of my hardware devices collected at a previous date: -Doug Bus 0, device 0, function 0: class/rev 06000003, vendor/device 11060691, status/cmd 22100006 Class: Bridge, Sub-class: Host bridge Vendor: VIA Technologies, Inc., Device: VT82C693A/694x [Apollo PRO133x] 64MB prefetchable 32-bit memory at 50000000 - 53FFFFFF Bus 0, device 1, function 0: class/rev 06040000, vendor/device 11068305, status/cmd 22300007 Class: Bridge, Sub-class: PCI bridge, ProgIntfc: Normal decode Vendor: VIA Technologies, Inc., Device: VT8363/8365 [KT133/KM133 AGP] Bus 1, device 0, function 0: class/rev 03000015, vendor/device 10DE002D, status/cmd 02B00007 Class: Display controller, Sub-class: VGA compatible controller, ProgIntfc: VGA Vendor: nVidia Corporation, Device: Vanta [NV6] IRQ3, INTA 16MB 32-bit memory at 40000000 - 40FFFFFF 32MB prefetchable 32-bit memory at 42000000 - 43FFFFFF Bus 0, device 3, function 0: class/rev 0C001000, vendor/device 104C8020, status/cmd 02100006 Class: Serial bus controller, Sub-class: FireWire (IEEE 1394), ProgIntfc: OHCI Vendor: Texas Instruments, Device: Unknown IRQ3, INTA 2KB 32-bit memory at 41100000 - 411007FF 16KB 32-bit memory at 41000000 - 41003FFF Bus 0, device 4, function 0: class/rev 07030402, vendor/device 134D7897, status/cmd 02100000 Class: Communication controller, Sub-class: Modem, ProgIntfc: Hayes/16750 Vendor: PCTel Inc, Device: HSP MicroModem 56 IRQ255, INTA 64B I/O at 00000000 - 0000003F Bus 0, device 6, function 0: class/rev 02000010, vendor/device 11131211, status/cmd 02900007 Class: Network controller, Sub-class: Ethernet controller Vendor: Accton Technology Corporation, Device: SMC2-1211TX IRQ11, INTA 256B I/O at 00001000 - 000010FF 256B 32-bit memory at 41200000 - 412000FF Bus 0, device 7, function 0: class/rev 04010009, vendor/device 12741371, status/cmd 04100005 Class: Multimedia controller, Sub-class: Multimedia audio controller Vendor: Ensoniq, Device: ES1371 [AudioPCI-97] IRQ3, INTA 64B I/O at 00001440 - 0000147F Bus 0, device 20, function 0: class/rev 06010022, vendor/device 11060686, status/cmd 02100087 Class: Bridge, Sub-class: ISA bridge Vendor: VIA Technologies, Inc., Device: VT82C686 [Apollo Super South] Bus 0, device 20, function 1: class/rev 01018A10, vendor/device 11060571, status/cmd 02900007 Class: Mass storage controller, Sub-class: IDE interface Vendor: VIA Technologies, Inc., Device: Bus Master IDE 16B I/O at 000014C0 - 000014CF Bus 0, device 20, function 2: class/rev 0C030010, vendor/device 11063038, status/cmd 02100007 Class: Serial bus controller, Sub-class: USB Controller, ProgIntfc: UHCI Vendor: VIA Technologies, Inc., Device: UHCI USB IRQ11, INTD 32B I/O at 00001480 - 0000149F Bus 0, device 20, function 3: class/rev 0C030010, vendor/device 11063038, status/cmd 02100007 Class: Serial bus controller, Sub-class: USB Controller, ProgIntfc: UHCI Vendor: VIA Technologies, Inc., Device: UHCI USB IRQ11, INTD 32B I/O at 000014A0 - 000014BF Bus 0, device 20, function 4: class/rev 06800030, vendor/device 11063057, status/cmd 02900000 Class: Bridge, Sub-class: Bridge Vendor: VIA Technologies, Inc., Device: VT82C686 [Apollo Super ACPI] 12 devices found
"Douglas G. Danforth" wrote:
So my hypothesis is that, indeed, the USB driver may be failing.
While watching Diagnosis Murder on TV I happened to glance over at my fiance's work table and noticed a new mouse with a PS2 to USB adaptor. Ah, ha, says I and quickly got up and reattached my keyboard through it. Bingo! Native Alpha came up with a cursor! I then preceeded to go through the installation process without problems. I'm not quite finished since I haven't choosen the correct display type for my Mitsubishi flat panel but since it is now 11:30pm I will do that tomorrow. So, finally getting there. I have many comments about this installation process. But more on that later. -Doug
"Douglas G. Danforth" wrote:
I then preceeded to go through the installation process without problems. I'm not quite finished since I haven't choosen the correct display type for my Mitsubishi flat panel but since it is now 11:30pm I will do that tomorrow.
Display now configured and working. USB Keyboard: Although connecting the USB jack through the round connector for my keyboard allowed the mouse to work the keyboard is still not functional. After booting and running from hard disk I removed the round connector plugged the keyboard into a USB slot. The keyboard then worked! Summary: 1) Booting with keyboard connected to USB fails (no cursor) 2) Booting with keyboard connected to USB to round converter works to the extent that cursor and mouse work but keyboard does not. 3) Once booted, reconnecting keyboard directly to USB makes keyboard work. USB handler for keyboard definitely needs upgrading. (all of this is for the Alpha version of Native) -Doug
Andre, Patrik, Pieter, Folks, Issue: Bluebottle documentation and the "background of obviousness". I look at the process of moving now to installing Bluebottle and blanch (turn white). Why? Many of the terms are unfamiliar to me. I would not expect this (some but not so much) after nearly 40 years of programming. In hopes of improving the Bluebottle installation process I will go through the online documentation with annotated comments which are meant to be helpful and suggestive of change. The phrase "What is not said is purposefully left unsaid" (paraphrase of Dr. Wirth) is fine, but only up to a point. For introduction to new areas verboseness is better than tersness. However, it takes a great deal of work to make writing simple and concise. It is easy just to through in the kitchen sink. Let's start with "http://bluebottle.ethz.ch/index.html" o "SMP-compatible" I deduce from context but is undefined. The rest of the page is fairly clear. Jump to "http://bluebottle.ethz.ch/instreq.html" (Requirements) I have a great deal of difficulty with this page, not so much in the specifics but "what is left unsaid". Namely, where is the overview saying "you need a great deal of hardware knowledge to install Bluebottle". Where is the statement that you can severly damage or destroy your current system if you are not very careful? I believe that Bluebottle attracts users to the website first and that Native Oberon is a secondary interest to the newcomer so that assuming they know about Native is not a good idea. "Partition" needs to be extensively defined with examples given so that the user knows what they are getting into. "If you have a boot manager, logical drives in extended partions may also work (e.g., with LILO, BootMagic, NT BootLoader)" What's a "logical drive"? What's an "extended partition". What is a boot manager? Why is it that the "may" work? "LILO" needs to have Linux associated with it. "BootMagic" needs to be removed and replaced with "PartitionMagic" since BootMagic is no longer supported. "The latest version of the ZipTool is also required to unpack the zip files. " But now that I have a Native partition that has no access to the internet how do I get "any" file from the web into the Native file space? Copy to floppy and then execute ...??... what command from Native? "Disk space: In addition to an existing Native Oberon installation, one free partition of about 100MB for Bluebottle. If you want to boot Bluebottle, the partition has to be a primary partition on the first 8GB of the hard disk." When I did Partitions.Show I was shown what partions already existed on my drives. Nowhere in the installation process was I given the option of "repartioning" my drives. If this is possible in one of the steps then *here* in the Bluebottle documentation it should say "If you don't have a boot manager then from within the Native installation you can repartion at step ... of the installation process" More later. -Doug
I have decided not to continue my online comments about the Bluebottle documentation since this is an irresponsible approach. I prefer instead to actively engage in improving Bluebottle by doing work, by taking responsibility for Bluebottle. That's how change and improvement happen. Agreement is the other element that must be active in this process. -Doug
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Douglas G. Danforth -
muller＠inf.ethz.ch