October 2002 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #98 - 3 msgs
by John Drake 21 Oct '02

21 Oct '02

To Chris, If you are going to quote me in the future, be accurate and quote me in context! > An author from newsgroup:c.l.o suggested that I 'fix > it'. This won't > happen ! > > I've made a 'work-around' to allow me to login {and > my email is also > half crippled}, but the update needs to be done > correctly: > 1. understand the applicable (if any) RFC. And for some ODD reason you don't want to get off your duff and read the RFCs for yourself! I gave you a link to one RFC on the subject. > 2. publicly/open state the policy. Edgar publicly stated that he's happy to receive bugfixes for PPP. > 3. iterate a sequence of modify-test runs over > several ISPs. Weren't you the one that went ballistic when I suggested that you even contact your ISP? Anyway, as I already said in comp.lang.oberon, if you want to set up a "structured project" then go for it! Go to www.sourceforge.net or some similair place. > Are we going to fix it, or are we all going to > migrate to M$ ? Considering this problem only affects a few I doubt it's going to make much difference with regards to M$ vs Oberon. Since you are the one most affected by this you should take the lead. Read (carefully) the RFC I already pointed you to. Find other relavent RFCs and read them. (The RFC for PPP and PPPAuth is available on the internet). Regards, John M. Drake __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

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Informatik Kolloquium WS 2002-2003
by Peter Koschitz 21 Oct '02

21 Oct '02

The Computer Science Colloquium at ETH Zürich Winter program November 2002-January 2003 Held weekly during the semesters, the Colloquium is an opportunity to listen some of the top international computer scientists on a variety of topics ranging over the hottest areas of the discipline. The lectures are open to the public and we welcome outside attendance. Talks are followed by a small reception providing an opportunity to meet the speaker. Program see www.inf.ethz.ch/kolloquium best regards - P. Koschitz If you are outside the Department of Computer Science (D-INFK) please subscribe to our new mailing list 'public'( http://www.lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/public ) to be informed on news and events from our department.

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Re:Bluebottle Main.Menu.XML open problem
by Necati Ecevit 20 Oct '02

20 Oct '02

> With the July 3 version of Bluebottle OS system, >> >> 1- Open the Oberon Window from Bluebottle Main Menu, ( or any other window) >> 2- Close Bluebottle Main Menu window, >> 3- Close Oberon Window ( or the other window) >> >> If I follow these steps,the Bluebottle Main Menu window can not be >> opened again by pressing Alt-ESC or Ctrl-ESC keys. >> >> Or, is there any other key combinations to open Main Menu window ? > > > I could not reproduce the problem. Only Ctrl-ESC should work. Does Ctrl-ESC > work if the other window is not yet closed ? > > --Thomas > Infact, what I found today is that, it still there but I can not see it, by moving mouse cursor over Menu.Main.XML window and when the mouse pointer is on its borders cursor shape is changed. So, I pressed Oberon button by guessing the its position, it worked but border of oberon window is not shown.When I move oberon window such that it is on the Menu.Main.XML window I can see the window. So the problem is in other places. I use Vesa2/3 display driver (1024x768x16). Necati.

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S3: Multiple incompatibilities with ISPs
by eas-lab＠absamail.co.za 19 Oct '02

19 Oct '02

I had originally started this thread in newsgroup: comp.lang.oberon to get input from a wider audience. This SERIOUS matter concerns not specifically Sys3, nor any specific language/OS, but rather the internet protocol. Now I'm bringing the thread back to the n-o mailing-list to get some FOCUS. eas-lab(a)absamail.co.za wrote in message news: > > That few readers/contributers to this forum actually use Sys3 to > > access the internet is perhaps for good reason ? > > > > NetSystem.Def expects the syntax: > > ":" ["//"] [ user [ ":" password ] "@" ] host [ "/" ]. > > > > So "@" is the delimiter between the 'user-token' and the 'host-token'. > > > > When my ISP (apparently merged with another and) changed my > > 'user-token' to include the "@" char, this broke the expected syntax > > for NetSystem.Mod. jmdrake_98(a)yahoo.com (jmdrake) wrote: > Say what? Your user id has an "@" in it? That breaks every convention > I've ever seen. How do you receive email? user@name@hostname.com? > I'm very confused. ...... big snip ... > eas-lab(a)absamail.co.za wrote > > I don't see it that way. > > The loop is merely a 'tokenizer', with token separators {" ",":","@","/"} > > Which corresponds to the code's comment: > > (** Command NetSystem.SetUser { service ":" ["//"] [ user [ ":" password ] " > > jmdrake wrote: > Correct. But it's a tokenizer based on the RFC. I believe the tokeniser should not be based on the internet protocol: * the RFC refers to internet protocol. * the S3 'tokeniser' needs to extract the <loginUserName> and <loginPaswrd> which does NOT comply with internet protocol. * by CONVENTION the <loginUserName> was 'mostly' a user-chosen name, with mnemonic value and without any embedded "@" char. * these days <loginUserName> is often allocated by the ISP and may have an embedded "@" char. ---------------------- I took the query to other 'network-centered' newsgroups for an opinion and got:-- Subject: Is "@" a valid char for <LoginUserName> ? > > > My theory is that the login procedure for BBSs was taken over by ISPs. > > > Ie. a name selected by the user was allowed as his <LoginUserName>, > > > unless this <LoginUserName> had already been allocated. > > > > > > These days ISP users often have 4 different strings: > > > 1. <LoginUserName> > > > 2. <LoginPaswrd> > > > 3. <emailUserName> > > > 4. <emailPaswrd> > > 1st reply wrote: > > No, this is not true. Thers is no "email user name" separate from the login > > name, no email password separate from the login password, and the email > > address is constructed, not entered. There is no flexibility about it. An > > email address consists of login name + "@" + hostname. > 2nd reply wrote: > You are incorrect. There is no requirement to have a correlation between > email addresses and login names. > > Software that doesn't believe that '@' can be in a username is broken. > > > Whereas the RFC clearly states that "@" has a special meaning for > > > URLs, ie. for the <emailUserName>, it does not deal with the > > > logingIn procedure. > > > > > > Ie. "john(a)ibi.co.za" would be a permitted <LoginUserName> > > > > > > The OS which I use assumes that "@" will never be in the > > > <LoginUserName>, and uses it the separate the <LoginUserName>. > > > > > > My latest ISP allocated a <LoginUserName> with "@" in it, so > > > this breaks the OS. 3rd reply wrote (contradicting 1st reply) Paul, you might stop being so argumentative. It is entirely possible that his ISP _did_ assign him logon username with an imbedded @ sign. For that matter, one of my past ISPs did the same to me. > > Are you in favor of, or against, the use of "@" in login names? If the > > former, how do you propose that an e-mail address be shaped automatically > > out of a login name and a hostname (a requirement)? > > Again, this is not a requirement. It is a convention on many Unix > systems, but even on Unix, there are plenty of counter examples. > > For instance on an installation that runs the Cyrus IMAP server, there > is no correlation between usernames found in /etc/passwd and Cyrus > mailbox names, and no correlation between passwords in /etc/passwd and > the authentication credentials used by Cyrus. In fact, I have run mail > servers for hundreds of IMAP users, and the only entries in /etc/passwd > were system accounts (root, bin, daemon, etc.). ---------------------- So, I've twice, from 2 different ISPs had "@" in my <LoginUserName>. And we have reports of others. The existing code {dated from 1996/7} makes a previously mostly valid assumption/simplification. I expect this assumption to be increasingly invalidated as internet usage increases. An author from newsgroup:c.l.o suggested that I 'fix it'. This won't happen ! I've made a 'work-around' to allow me to login {and my email is also half crippled}, but the update needs to be done correctly: 1. understand the applicable (if any) RFC. 2. publicly/open state the policy. 3. iterate a sequence of modify-test runs over several ISPs. On the principle of successive refinement: if you can't agree on the ISP login protocol, I won't bring up (yet) the email handling, which I believe is also 'out of spec'. Are we going to fix it, or are we all going to migrate to M$ ? -- Chris Glur. Summary: * the existing code doesn't handle <LoginUserName> which has an embedded "@". * I have evidence of several independant valid <LoginUserName>s which have an embedded "@". * I believe that future <LoginUserName> will increasingly have embedded "@" s. * I also suspect that the email fetching, makes some assumption(s) which are not valid. We must distinguish between convention and rule.

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Re: [Oberon] Bluebottle Main.Menu.XML open problem
by frey＠inf.ethz.ch 18 Oct '02

18 Oct '02

> With the July 3 version of Bluebottle OS system, > > 1- Open the Oberon Window from Bluebottle Main Menu, ( or any other window) > 2- Close Bluebottle Main Menu window, > 3- Close Oberon Window ( or the other window) > > If I follow these steps,the Bluebottle Main Menu window can not be > opened again by pressing Alt-ESC or Ctrl-ESC keys. > > Or, is there any other key combinations to open Main Menu window ? I could not reproduce the problem. Only Ctrl-ESC should work. Does Ctrl-ESC work if the other window is not yet closed ? --Thomas

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Bluebottle Main.Menu.XML open problem
by Necati Ecevit 18 Oct '02

18 Oct '02

Hi, With the July 3 version of Bluebottle OS system, 1- Open the Oberon Window from Bluebottle Main Menu, ( or any other window) 2- Close Bluebottle Main Menu window, 3- Close Oberon Window ( or the other window) If I follow these steps,the Bluebottle Main Menu window can not be opened again by pressing Alt-ESC or Ctrl-ESC keys. Or, is there any other key combinations to open Main Menu window ? Necati.

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small joy
by pat＠picoworks.com 16 Oct '02

16 Oct '02

Welcome aboard Yuri. People are here, they are just busy using Oberon. Oberon is an elegant yet simple system. Once the core concepts are grasped it's relatively easy to generate the tools one needs and thus I spend far less time asking questions and far more time productively programming. Good luck. Pat

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small joy
by Yuri M. Skripkah 16 Oct '02

16 Oct '02

Hello , All. Hm-m-mm. Zero activity level. Sorry. And, I find and buy Permedia2 and 3c509b - rare things, for native install. May be, two month later, I will write something useful... -- Best regards, Yuri mailto:yurix@i.com.ua

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Updating Slim Binaries
by John Drake 15 Oct '02

15 Oct '02

Hello all, This list seems far more active than comp.lang.oberon for some reason. Anyway a project to revive slim binaries would indeed be interesting. It would be good to get Michael Franz in on the project. As you may already know he was one of the original creators of slim binaries. He's been doing some interesting work lately with something he calls "SafeTSA". (See http://www.ics.uci.edu/~franz/ and click on the "List of Publications) The TSA stands for "type safe single static assignment". This is similair to the GSA technology used by OOC folks. But instead of being aimed at native compilation like OOC, SafeTSA is still mobile. This allows for what Dr. Franz calls "dynamic reoptimization". In other words the same types of optimization that GSA allows, SafeTSA allows, but it's enhanced by the ability to do these after first gathering information about the machine on which it's running on, instead of the machine on which it's compiled. (Hmmm...perhaps the similairity to GSA might get the interest of the OOC folks?) But this time instead of "kicking against the tide" with Oberon and Juice Dr. Franz is applying SafeTSA to the Java VM. With that information in mind I see a few ways to proceed. 1) A joint project between ETH and UCI to integrate SafeTSA into the Active Oberon compiler. (Ok, I'm dreaming here.) 2) Build a compiler that outputs JavaVM code. Then use SafeTSA to convert this to optimized native code on the fly. This isn't as far fetched an idea as it sounds. The JOB compiler already creates JavaVM from O2 code. And there's already a JavaVM loader for BlueBottle Oberon. 3) What Patrick has already mentioned, namely updating the old Slim Binaries representation for Active Oberon. Personally I would vote for option # 2. That would transform BlueBottle Oberon from an "interesting project" into a real contender in the WebServer arena. Regards, John M. Drake __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com

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Slim Binaries - what happened ?
by Treutwein Bernhard 14 Oct '02

14 Oct '02

Hi Patrik, thanks for: > > > > As far as I understand, OMI is now history and not implemented in the > > current ETH Oberon system, although it is referenced heavily in the > > "Oberon Companion". > > > Correct. > > > If I understand the compiler genealogy > > (http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/compiler/) > > correct, I guess that OMI has never been updated to the "enhanced" > > features Patrik Reali implemented. Is there any principle problem > > with that ? > > [...] > > Anyway, this is still possible, and it would be interesting, to have > somebody take over the OMI code and adapt it to the extended symbol table > and parse tree used for active oberon. > that is very interesting to hear, although I fear that I will have neither the time nor the abilities to care of such a project. But maybe, we should cross-post this thread to comp.lang.oberon to get a larger audience. -- Bernhard Treutwein Bernhard.Treutwein(a)verwaltung.uni-muenchen.de (work) BdT(a)wildwein.de (home)

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