April 2007 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

RE: [Oberon] Last changed: April 3, 2007 - could it be a diploma thesis?
by Treutwein Bernhard 30 Apr '07

30 Apr '07

Salut Jürg, let me do two "stack oriented" replies and pop some comments ... > devellopment in software (oberon is neither commercial nor > completely free) to my knowledge licensing changed and its now a BSD-like license, which is more than free: You can base soemthing commercial on it without requirement to publish the sources. This is the type of open source licence MicroSoft prefers :-) > the benefit it would give over native oberon. So I kept > waiting for the next release of native oberon, announced for > early 2003... (Do I have to tell you, how it feels to read absolutely correct. But the last two/three people, who maintained it, apparently left ETHZ and could not find the time to do the maintainance in their spare time. I myself did become maintainer of a last attempt to setup a source-forge project, but I also do not have much time and it would need a bit more thinking ... switching to subversion (to handle the binary contents) and more but that even needs more time if you're not fluent in these tools (CVS & subversion) ... just some quick thoughts ... regards -- Bernhard Treutwein, IuK, Ref. III A 3 Bernhard.Treutwein(at)verwaltung uni-muenchen de

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Re. Other ARM platform
by Chris Glur 30 Apr '07

30 Apr '07

Maksimiuk Darek wrote: > There is very powerful alternative to the "bare" ARM processor. > Please have a look at : > http://www.atmel-grenoble.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/7001s.pdf > The D740 processor is a dual core system that consists of ARM processor > and VLIW DSP core > called mAgic. It does a complex multiplication within one signal clock. > It gives 1 GFLOP peak performance @ 1.2 W > (1024 points complex FFT in 60 us) !!!! > > I think, this could be a good candidate for the AOS system !!! > Texas Instruments also has a version with DSP facilities. Many portable devices will want dsp routines: audio..modems..etc. I guess the dsp would be programmed, separately from [or using] the AOS facilties ? Already N-O has a terrible/unintuitive 'set-based' syntax for register, memory, port programming. I speculate that AOS could make some better tool[s] to program the dsp. But I don't see that the dsp instructions would be used in AOS applications ? juergkoch wrote: > I had Bluebottle up and running in 2002. Fine thing! Five years ago > (this is no joke), it gave me nevertheless the impression that it > demanded too much on hardware compared to the benefit it would > give over native oberon. I've also been waiting for AOS to mature. Apparently it's pre-emptive [? multi-threaded]; does this mean it should use multiple CPUs for full benefit ? BTW, although I haven't yet studied the ARM instruction set, its popularity is also due to the [6502 effect] simplicity; and the lower power consumption too. IMO combining complexity [eg. in the software] with simplicity of hardware is not a good idea. == Chris Glur.

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unsubscribe
by Battisson, Jim 29 Apr '07

29 Apr '07

-----Original Message----- From: oberon-bounces(a)lists.inf.ethz.ch [mailto:oberon-bounces@lists.inf.ethz.ch] On Behalf Of Bernhard Treutwein Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:24 AM To: maxy(a)wanadoo.nl; ETH Oberon and related systems Subject: Re: [Oberon] Other ARM platform Hi Darek, the Diopsis 740 looks very interesting, but do you know, if there is some prototyping board/system available? Where and what about pricing? regards Bernhard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maksimiuk Darek" <maxy(a)wanadoo.nl> To: <oberon(a)lists.inf.ethz.ch> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 1:12 PM Subject: [Oberon] Other ARM platform > Dear All, > There is very powerful alternative to the "bare" ARM processor. > Please have a look at : http://www.atmel-grenoble.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/7001s.pdf > The D740 processor is a dual core system that consists of ARM processor and VLIW DSP core > called mAgic. It does a complex multiplication within one signal clock. It gives 1 GFLOP peak performance @ 1.2 W > (1024 points complex FFT in 60 us) !!!! > > I think, this could be a good candidate for the AOS system !!! > > Regards, > Darek > > > -- Oberon(a)lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon ************************************************************************ *PLEASE NOTE* This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please delete all copies and advise the sender. The reproduction or dissemination of this email or its attachments is prohibited without the consent of the sender. WARNING RE VIRUSES: Our computer systems sweep outgoing email to guard against viruses, but no warranty is given that this email or its attachments are virus free. Before opening or using attachments, please check for viruses. Our liability is limited to the re-supply of any affected attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the organisation. ************************************************************************

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Other ARM platform
by Maksimiuk Darek 29 Apr '07

29 Apr '07

Dear All, There is very powerful alternative to the "bare" ARM processor. Please have a look at : http://www.atmel-grenoble.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/7001s.pdf The D740 processor is a dual core system that consists of ARM processor and VLIW DSP core called mAgic. It does a complex multiplication within one signal clock. It gives 1 GFLOP peak performance @ 1.2 W (1024 points complex FFT in 60 us) !!!! I think, this could be a good candidate for the AOS system !!! Regards, Darek

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WMMixer.Mod
by Yaroslav Romanchenko 28 Apr '07

28 Apr '07

Hi All, Mixer mute CheckBoxes lacks of onClick handlers. Piece of Mixer object definition with changes: PROCEDURE &Init; BEGIN Init^; NEW(deviceName, PrototypedeviceName, NIL, NIL); properties.Add(deviceName); NEW(channelName, PrototypechannelName, NIL, NIL); properties.Add(channelName); NEW(name); name.alignment.Set(WMComponents.AlignTop); name.bounds.SetHeight(20); AddContent(name); NEW(mute); mute.alignment.Set(WMComponents.AlignBottom); mute.bounds.SetHeight(20); mute.caption.SetAOC("Mute"); mute.onClick.Add(MuteChanged); AddContent(mute); NEW(value); value.alignment.Set(WMComponents.AlignClient); value.bearing.SetLeft(20); value.bearing.SetRight(20); value.onPositionChanged.Add(VolChanged); value.max.Set(255); AddContent(value); END Init; PROCEDURE MuteChanged(sender, data : ANY); BEGIN IF channel # NIL THEN channel.SetMute(mute.state.Get () = WMStandardComponents.Checked); END END MuteChanged; -- Cheers, SAGE http://sage.com.ua/

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Incorrect bitmap header with BMPEncoder.WriteImage() in AosBMPCodec.Mod
by Yaroslav Romanchenko 28 Apr '07

28 Apr '07

Hi All, BMPEncoder.WriteImage() makes bitmap header regardless of additional sizes of color masks. Incorrect piece: (* Bitmap file header *) out.String("BM"); out.RawLInt(14 + 40 + palentries * 4 + dataSize); out.RawLInt(0); out.RawLInt(14 + 40 + palentries * 4); After correction: (* Bitmap file header *) out.String("BM"); IF (img.fmt.code = Raster.bgra8888) OR (img.fmt.code = Raster.bgr888) OR (img.fmt.code = Raster.bgr466) OR (img.fmt.code = Raster.bgr555) OR (img.fmt.code = Raster.bgr565) THEN (* regard the additional size of color masks *) out.RawLInt(12 + 14 + 40 + palentries * 4 + dataSize); out.RawLInt(0); out.RawLInt(12 + 14 + 40 + palentries * 4); ELSE out.RawLInt(14 + 40 + palentries * 4 + dataSize); out.RawLInt(0); out.RawLInt(14 + 40 + palentries * 4); END; -- Cheers, SAGE http://sage.com.ua/

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[Oberon] Last changed: April 3, 2007 - could it be a diploma thesis?
by Jürg Koch 27 Apr '07

27 Apr '07

Dear oberoners I've been following this list over years, because the project keeps me fascinated. I had Bluebottle up and running in 2002. Fine thing! Five years ago (this is no joke), it gave me nevertheless the impression that it demanded to much on hardware compared to the benefit it would give over native oberon. So I kept waiting for the next release of native oberon, announced for early 2003... (Do I have to tell you, how it feels to read the same announcement in 2007, still active on the net?) Well, since the old days (?), things have changed on the hardware side: A whole Rucksack-charge of floppies takes place on a memory-card by the size of a stamp. And it's all incredibly and insanly cheap! What awakened my attention is the discussion about AOS running on ARM. Just the old boy's dream: have oberon on my psion! -> Give it a new try! Back on www.oberon.ethz.ch in 2007 feels familiar, too familiar. Frank Zappa once said: "Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny". Two points: Reading the list or the change log of bluebottle's crazy fresh, shows that there is a very active devellopment ongoing; reading the rest of the web-site can drive one crazy! -> The lost decade! If it had been my first try with oberon, it would have been my last one too: The latest news from 8 dec 2005! This project must have definitely expired - one might think. My point is: I want to install bluebottle. How to? (that is not a question to the list, it should be answered by the web-site.) If you try to read the change logs of bluebottle and compare them to the FAQ you will go crazy. My judgement is that the devellopers have lost 10 years of documentation (between crazy fresh and "old release" - where are the intermediate states: "Never tested, never booted but as fresh as it can be..." (???) - the quotation refers to each and every "crazy fresh" since 2004!) -> Make it a diploma thesis! Read the introduction to "Project Oberon" by Niklaus Wirth and Jürg Gutknecht (first ed. 1992), and read about those Lilith and Ceres and look up their names in Wikipedia, if you like. Pascal is another reference and - of course - the famous "make it as simple as possible, but not simpler". The present documentation for bluebottle seems a mess to me. Oberon was also king of elves, and I think that the system is in desperate need for a good spirit to brush up its "image". This is a demanding task. It would envolve lots of poundering if - for example - information on modem connections with 9600 baud is still needed and how it should be referenced and archivated... -> An ideal case study on devellopment! Oberon is a small system. Develloped by a relatively small group. "Crazy and impossible" - where the first reactions of Wirth to "project oberon". It should be feasible to document this system. It is also a case study on an special modell of devellopment in software (oberon is neither commercial nor completely free, its not architecture dependent - its still a defeat to many credentials in IT). And Oberon beeing the largest moon of Uranus is not for lunatics only. Regards Jürg

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Re: Active Oberon on ARM CPUs
by unknown＠example.com 24 Apr '07

24 Apr '07

> Yes very interested, but this would be a much bigger task than porting > ETH-oberon or AOS to a standard PC. Bernhard wrote: > AOS/Bluebottle on ARM has existed for almost 6 years now as I have originally > ported the (x86) AOS to a DNARD computer with a StrongARM processor. If you're > interested, here's a link to my thesis and the sources: > http://aces.snu.ac.kr/~bernhard/bluebottle/armaos/01.ETH.Egger.ARMAos.pdf > http://aces.snu.ac.kr/~bernhard/bluebottle/armaos/ARMRelease.zip > 01.ETH.Egger.ARMAos.pdf is very impressive and I appreciate the effort to keep compatability with ETH-OAS's x86 work, to get 'leaverage'. Presently under linux, ARMRelease.zip tells: Archive: a.zip End-of-central-directory signature not found. Either this file is not a zipfile, or it constitutes one disk of a multi-part archive. In the latter case the central directory and zipfile comment will be found on the last disk(s) of this archive. But I'll investigate the *.zip further. I don't know what hardware to get. I'd want to take a successive refinement approach, eg.: - hex code a minimal loop which confirms eg. that input to port1 is echoed out to port2 - perhaps confirm that the ample linux/gcc tools can produce something - and only then start building minimal AOS 'confirmatory utilities' and documenting them for use of later collaborators. > > Apart from any AOS considerations, where would one get > > documentation for the boot/load method. Which I'd want > > to test, in a minimum way first. > > I suggest you have a look at the bootup code in wear.AosSysSrc.zip, specifically > wearARM.Relocator.Mod and ARM.AosBoot.Mod. Those are the two modules that bring > the board into a specific state. The kernel above is +/- the same for all boards > (except device drivers, of course) Are these files in the ARMRelease.zip ? > Since I have left, ETH has been working on new ARM-based projects, so you might > want to wait for Sven's release. However, since documenting stuff is not one of > the strong sides of us, you might wanna have a look at my diploma thesis to get > an idea what's going on. > Of course, people publishing theses or releasing a product have time specific events, but I try to act as a very open, continually evolving collaborator. So I'm puting my log, and especially what goes wrong [to be avoided by others] to: http://www.edgar-schwarz.de/mm/ArmOberon Thanks, == Chris Glur.

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UDPChat (Fixed!)
by Yaroslav Romanchenko 19 Apr '07

19 Apr '07

Application improved by using AosKernel.MilliTimer. Maximal available message length is limited to 1500 chars because of limitation of AosNet MTU size. New fixed version of UDPChat available under link: http://sage.com.ua/files/Sage.UDPChat.zip Web page of application: http://sage.com.ua/ru.shtml?e1l4 -- Cheers, SAGE http://sage.com.ua/

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Re. Active Oberon on ARM CPUs
by Chris Glur 19 Apr '07

19 Apr '07

I'm cross posting this to: Newsgroups: comp.sys.arm Subject: Active Oberon on ARM CPUs Sven Stauber wrote To: <oberon(a)lists.inf.ethz.ch>: > In about two weeks, I'm going to work again on a project which uses the > ARM version of AOS. At that time, I will provide an image that runs on > XScale PXA25x/PXA26x CPUs (maybe also others, I'm not sure) and the > corresponding sources for those who are interested. I'm going to > announce the availability of these files on this list. Yes very interested, but this would be a much bigger task than porting ETH-oberon or AOS to a standard PC. Since I've resisted examining the [family of] ARM CPU[s] architecture, I don't even know how/where a boot/reset code would run. Apart from any AOS considerations, where would one get documentation for the boot/load method. Which I'd want to test, in a minimum way first. And is your proposed system applicable to multiple hardware configurations - yet ? I see that linux/slackware/arm seems to be initially working on an old [still available] arm-pc, which seems the best idea for a development system. But the final aim must be to run portable [minimal current consumption] device[s] ? As a previous writer noted, porting to the 'game boy' would be interesting. Thanks, ==Chris Glur.

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