January 2008 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

New BB/AOS release
by Stauber Sven Philipp 28 Mar '08

28 Mar '08

Dear Oberon Users, BB/AOS revision 763 has been released. Note that starting with this release, we won't provide detailed change logs on the Bluebottle website anymore. Instead, you can get read-access to the AOS/WinAOS source code repository if you want to see what exactly has been changed (see www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch for details). Releases will, however, always be announced on this list. Best Regards, Sven Stauber

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Graphical Installer
by greim 24 Jan '08

24 Jan '08

Hello Fantastic. In 5 minutes i had Bluebottle installed on my harddisk. Thanks a lot for this great and helpful tool! So now nearly 96% are running well. only some smaller problems / questions. : I didn't understand the boot mechanism and how and where Aos.Par works. After the new hd installation no Aos.Par was on the hd. Then i copied the latest release (recommended in one of the last postings) of Aos.Par onto the harddisk, but no change. For example i have to change the keyboard (from US to DE) and to increase the screen res. etc. Any special attribute / tools / directory for Aos.Par ? Any other config file, config tool ? Regards Markus Greim

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The latest CD as inst. source
by greim 23 Jan '08

23 Jan '08

Hello, i have downloaded the latest CD image, and BB is running on a lot of machines without any problems (but not on machines with Intel Extreme 2 graphic) Now i like to install it on a (fresh) PC bootable from a HD. The howto claims following Desktops.OpenDoc CD:AosInst.Tool~ would be enough. Extracting files to the HD works, i have now an AosFS on my HD. But it still doesn't boot from the HD Running Partitions.UpdateBootFile Partitions.SetConfig in Aos.Par will cause an Command Execution Error in the Kernel Log Window Any hints for easy installing BB on a hard disk (or on a USB stick ?) Regards Mit freundlichen Grüßen Markus Greim Schleibinger Geräte Teubert u. Greim GmbH

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Re: [Oberon] Announcement: Oberon Community Platform is online!
by peasthope＠shaw.ca 23 Jan '08

23 Jan '08

Sven, ss> ... please visit www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch Many thanks to you and anyone else who created it. Perhaps someone can put a link in the Community page which is linked in http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/; or you might have a better place for the link such as in http://www.newoberon.ethz.ch/. In fact, http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/ could have a link to http://www.newoberon.ethz.ch/. I found it only by accident. Regards, ... Peter E. Desktops.OpenDoc http://carnot.yi.org/

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Announcement: Oberon Community Platform is online!
by Stauber Sven Philipp 22 Jan '08

22 Jan '08

Dear Oberon Community, The Oberon Community Platform (OCP) is online. The following services are provided: - Wiki (website that can be edited by anyone using a standard web browser, no HTML knowledge required) - Web forum - Read-access to the AOS/WinAOS source code repository - Community source code repository - Oberon mailing list (this list) For more information, please visit www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch Best regards, Sven Stauber

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Re: New platform of possible interest to Oberon community
by Aubrey.McIntosh＠Alumni.UTexas.Net 20 Jan '08

20 Jan '08

On Jan 19, 2008 11:38 AM, Claudio Nieder <private(a)claudio.ch> wrote: > Hi, > > But as at that time I had an SGI Indy at home and had to deal with a > Decstation 5000 at work, and had some connections to ETH I asked for and got > the sources to one of the two. It was that time, when I tried - had to > abandon then because of no time :-( - to create a more unified version of all > the different V4 implementations. > > So you are lucky to find in http://claudio.ch/V4/UV4/ a compiler with MIPS > R2000 generator. It should work with newer CPUs, the decstation had a MIPS > R3000, and my Indy either an R4400 or R4600. It will of course not be able to > use the 64 bit extensions. > > Hope this helps you get started. > > claudio > -- > Claudio Nieder, Talweg 6, CH-8610 Uster, Tel +4179 357 6743, www.claudio.ch > I am very pleased to learn of this archive. It turns out that I have learned of the bankruptcy of SGI in reading this weekend, and that there are some SGI Oxygen and Lynx machines for sale on eBay for very little money. One is expiring now that I am not bidding on. I want one so much and the money is so little, but I am trying to become much more disciplined. I have re-installed my V4 environment with some shadow directories named MIPS_X. I have run my source scanner "AlmGather" on the deeply renamed file CompilerMIPS.Mod and associated files OROPM.Mod OROPS.Mod OROPT.Mod OROPL.Mod OROPC.Mod OROPV.Mod OROPB.Mod from http://claudio.ch/V4/UV4/ and attempted a cross compilation into the V4 (Windows XP) environment. It looks encouraging. The modules that AlmGather failed to find, and found to be imported by the time Oberon (XP) is loaded, and determined to be imported by CompilerMIPS are listed below. The module OROPP.Mod is not evident to me in http://claudio.ch/V4/UV4/. Perhaps if someone else has it they will submit it to you. However, the module iOPP.Mod is available in the (XP) environment, and HPOPP.Mod is available at http://claudio.ch/V4/HPUX/. They may provide a minimal path to re-create OROPP. Of course, if OROPPis available somewhere else I would love to use the authentic one. There is one module that will not compile in the XP environment due to too many global pointers. I can surely fix this. ---------------- AlmGather.Order Oberon.Mod TextFrames.Mod CompilerMIPS.Mod ~ OROPP.Mod\s SYSTEM.Mod\s Begin on-line source list; Folds.Compile\s Reals.Mod\s Console.Mod\s Kernel.Mod\s Registry.Mod\s ShowError.Mod\s Directories.Mod\s Files.Mod\s Modules.Mod\s Win32.Mod\s Display.Mod\s Strings.Mod\s Fonts.Mod\s Texts.Mod\s Viewers.Mod\s Input.Mod\s Oberon.Mod\s MenuViewers.Mod\s TextFrames.Mod\s ~ Folds.Compile OROPM.Mod\s OROPS.Mod\s OROPT.Mod\s OROPL.Mod\s OROPC.Mod\s OROPV.Mod\s OROPB.Mod\s CompilerMIPS.Mod\s ~ AlmGather.Order ^ \s compiling OROPM; 3186 compiling OROPS; 5155 compiling OROPT; pos 36742 err 222 too many global pointers compiling OROPL; 23186 compiling OROPC; 23064 compiling OROPV; 13108 compiling OROPB; 28665 -- -- Aubrey McIntosh, Ph.D. 1502 Devon Circle Austin TX 78723-1814 http://home.grandecom.net/~amcintosh/aubrey/Search/

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Nested blocks colouring tool.
by Chris Glur 20 Jan '08

20 Jan '08

When trying to read/modify some of the N-O source code, I often think that what I'm given is just a final distillation of a creation which used more tools than an editor -- which tools are now hidden. Like seeing at the ones & zeroes may hide the fact that they were distilled from other inputs by a compiler/assembler ? As an example, ET.Mod PROC Handle seems to have blocks nested 8 deep. And with the nested blocks colouring tool which I've proto-typed, [See ver-1, less than 2 screens of source code at: http://www.edgar-schwarz.de/mm/ProblemsPendingSolutions for contributor refining] < since the mm-wiki has its *OWN* syntax which clashes with Oberon's syntax, what I tried to post has corrupted formatting, extra knowledge is needed to post Oberon code to mm-wiki. I had a mail-bounce from: EdgarSchwarz(a)T9725.t.pppool.de when asking how to do it !> I've used red, blue, mauve, brown, green: CodeUtils.TraceBloks 1 , ... CodeUtils.TraceBloks 8 ; to colour the nested blocks. And afterwards, by sighting-down the code-text, while entering the next-colour-initial I got: r,b,m,n,g,r,b,r,b,r,n,g,r,b,g,b,g,b,r,b,r,g,n,m,b,g,r !! You really need 2 people: one to look-and-talk and one to write. That's why N-O's heads-up-operation [like a fighter pilot] is so superior ? Interestingly, adjacent red & brown gives poor colour contrast. Which can be avoided for opening-brackets, which are manually chosen 'on sight'. But closing-brackets 'arrive without foresight'. And related to this concept: I've just tested the same structure using only 2 alternating colour; and I get; 1= BEGIN .. n-2 = END; n-1= IF ~ handled THEN TextFrames.Handle(F, M) END n= END Handle; where line 1 was chosen to be red, and consequently its matching closing-line n is red too. And closing-line n-2 had to be green, because it's head [line 2] followed a red block. Therefore line n-1 had to be red. Which means that adjacent lines n-1 and n are both red, although they are at different block-levels. What's the algorithm to avoid this ? This reminds me of the classical map-colouring-problem in maths ? Because of the simplicity of oberon's syntax the basic block-colouring algorithms is trivial: * GetCaretPosn or error * Get/ScanOpenBrkt following caret or error * 0 -> BlokLevel * Repeat ScanTokens; If OpenBrkt then INC(BlokLevel); If ClosingBrkt then DEC(BlokLevel); * Until (BlokLevel = 0) * ColourTheBlockFrom(CaretPosn to FinalTokenPosition). And the data is: OpenBrkt = {"IF","CASE","WHILE","REPEAT","FOR","LOOP","WITH","BEGIN"} ClosingBrkt = {"UNTIL", "END"} . Only for "UNTIL <bool-expression>" does the the closing-bracket-token "UNTIL" not close the block, and correspondingly colour the block up to the end. A refinement to handle this might be more complex than the whole basic algorithm ? Another refinement might be to auto-select the colours of the inner blocks. Perhaps by modulo-cycling through a set of 3,4 or 5 colours ? This little exercise raised 2 queries for me: 1. why does Oberon report not list "BEGIN" <statement> "END" as a valid statement ? Like Pascal does ? The compiler recognises it. 2. What is my theoretical justification for using the function 'Texts.Pos(TheScanner)' to get the current position in the 'Texts' of the *SCANNER*, when this function is only defined for the *READER*, even if the 'Scanner = RECORD ( Reader )' is a descendant/extension of the 'Reader = RECORD'. BTW Watson.ShowDef Texts shows:- " (* Return reader's position within the text. *) PROCEDURE Pos (VAR R: Reader): LONGINT; " Oberon doesn't automatically inherit the procedures when the corresponding record-data-fields are inherited, as if 'Scanner' was a java-like-descendant class of 'Reader' ? Obviously the scanner would be a major part of the compiler's parser, and the 'latest position of the scanner' would need to be returned, eg. to mark error-position[s]. So 'Texts.Pos(TheScanner)' which is defined as telling the *READER* current position, tells the *SCANNER* current position too -- perhaps because the scanner uses the reader ? But what is the theoretical justification for this undocumented fact ? Ie. how would you KNOW that 'Texts.Pos(TheScanner)' gives you the scanner's [not just reader's] current position ? BTW I hope not to have to analyse the Texts.Mod code myself ! == Chris Glur.

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Re. New platform of possible interest to Oberon community
by Chris Glur 20 Jan '08

20 Jan '08

Aubrey.McIntosh wrote: > This uses the MIPS MK4 core. > > The higher end of the chips have 64 k RAM and 512 K > flash. In my mind, this makes this one chip approximately the power > of the late 1980s AT class motherboard. They cost about $5 in > quantity 10K, but I don't have the single quantity price at hand. > You are still watching OLPC ? Originally I criticised it for 'power consumption viability'. Only lately have they started to emphasise the power consumption. But they haven't given actual figures AFAIK. I heard the lady on the radio, who designed the [now patented AFAIK] display which can be viewed 'outside' and uses little power. She's left the project now ? So far Analogue Devices 'Blackfin' seems to be the lowest power consumption viable cpu. I thought Skulski's [previously of this list] name was connected with an Oberon compiler for it. Also it's linux port is very inactive. But the merits of a system/device seems often to be inversely related to its popularity, when I consider ETH-Oberon and poplog -- a mature/good AI language/system. == Chris Glur.

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Linux-ETH-Oberon details.
by Chris Glur 20 Jan '08

20 Jan '08

The reason why you'd want to use Linux-ETH-Oberon is to have the internet facilities of linux at the same time as the ETH-Oberon text handling power: rapid search, cutNpaste, colour stretches to hi-lite different concepts ...etc. It's the details which are often seen as trivial which determine your speed/productivity. The following works well for me: * Have several VTs open; each with mc running. The 2-panel mc format allows immediate view, edit, move, search ..etc. of the files newly obtained from the internet. Some of the mc panels have the 'home directory' of Linux-ETH-Oberon. This allows text to be easily moved in/out of the Oberon system. * The one panel of one of the mc's is set to show files in 'newness order' [rather than alphabetic order]. Then you can easily see which were the files/projects most recently worked on. You don't want to have to remember file-names ! When I want to reload the file from the <dingdong> project of last week, I just switch to linux > mc and view downwards from the top of the list of files; and recognise DelRptChrs.Mod. This is too much for me to remember/carry, so to transfer the name to the Oberon-side, I just do: D*R*d and hit System.Directory ^. You can do less trivial tasks like: * download a bloated *.pdf; * use linux 'pdf2text' to extract the text; * use a standard pdf-viewer & screen-capture to extract the graphical images -- while you are studying and colouring [for your convenience/requirement] the critical parts of the text. * use ETH-Oberon to paste the captured images into the custom coloured text-gadget. == This gives you a customised, fast-loading, editable [live], 'your own' version of the original *.pdf, which can be valuable if you need to often consult it. Eg. an important document, which originally came with graphics as a *.pdf. --------- Now a trivial task for which I have not yet found a simple solution: News.Send , TextMail.Send and TextMail.Cite need "Text"-frames and NOT "Document"-gadgets. If the text to be sent originated from the linux-side, eg. via internet, I don't know how to get it to a text-frame {Edit/ET/Pet-type} other than by cutNpaste. AFAIK EditTools is the only facility to transfer between Oberon & Linux formats; but EditTools doesn't provide the "Text"-frame which is needed for TextMail & News. Can someone advise on a solution ? == Chris Glur.

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New platform of possible interest to Oberon community
by Aubrey.McIntosh＠Alumni.UTexas.Net 18 Jan '08

18 Jan '08

There is a new microprocessor that is using a mature core. Some relevant links are http://www.microcontroller.com/news/microchip_pic32.asp http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=2591 This uses the MIPS MK4 core. A "core" is a specific CAD description used to make a specific model of silicon to implement an instruction set. I learned of this when Mouser sent me an email announcing a new product. This product was announced in November 2007 and is new on the market. The higher end of the chips have 64 k RAM and 512 K flash. In my mind, this makes this one chip approximately the power of the late 1980s AT class motherboard. They cost about $5 in quantity 10K, but I don't have the single quantity price at hand. For me, at least, this seems to use those skills I honed in the 80s. It probably matters that I can deal with registers and clock cycles instead of only knowing Java libraries. Also, it is new in the market. I looked for Oberon support. I had thought there was a compiler for the DEC Ultrix that was MIPS based. I found a binaries only distribution of the Creiler compiler, but so far no sources. As things go in software, it would be important to know if the 1991 "MIPS" is the same as the 2008 "MIPS" Anyway, it may be that this is an opportunity for the Oberon community. -- -- Aubrey McIntosh, Ph.D. 1502 Devon Circle Austin TX 78723-1814 http://home.grandecom.net/~amcintosh/aubrey/Search/

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