January 2012 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Is this the smallest Oberon (program) platform to date?
by Chris Burrows 31 Jan '12

31 Jan '12

I've been following the recent discussions here on ARM-based hardware with great interest. As many of you would know, we have been using the Oberon programming language for the last couple of years to develop embedded software on the older ARM7 family of microcontrollers. Having spent the last few months rewriting the code generator of the compiler we succeeded for the first time yesterday in executing an Oberon (Sep 2011 Revision) program on one of newer generation ARM Cortex-M3 MCUs. The Embedded Artists LPC1343 development board that we used can be seen in the photo: http://www.astrobe.com/images/LPC1343.jpg This may well be the smallest (at 2cm x 4cm) dev board that an Oberon program has ever run on, and possibly the cheapest (EU 16.90)? More details can be seen on the Embedded Artists website: http://www.embeddedartists.com/products/boards/lpc1343_qsb.php One particularly interesting feature of the LPC1343 MCU is that when you plug it into a PC's USB port it appears as a 'flash drive' on your PC. After you have compiled and linked your program on the PC, all you have to do is 'drag and drop' it to the drive to upload your program to the flash memory of the MCU, Regards, Chris Chris Burrows CFB Software Astrobe: ARM Oberon Development System http://www.astrobe.com

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HOW2 access N-O partitions from linux?
by Chris Glur 30 Jan '12

30 Jan '12

Perhaps while I'm writing this I'll gain understanding. How do the different file-systems: formats & partitions work? FAT, Linux, N-O and N-O-partition-in-a-N-O-file or in-FAT or in-Linux, and *that* in a Linux <loopFile>. LNO gives you access to your 10 years of accumulated work on N-O partitions, at the same time as you can access your FAT and Linux files via LEO on the same PC. Simultaneously. An important principle which LNO misses is: "don't give 'klikA-klikB-klikC style instructions for systems that can [will] fail. Give a mental-model of the system, to the user, so that he can work-around problems which YOU didn't anticipate". That's why they sent a man into space instead of an automaton. I've just realised that the SovietUnion sent automatons because they thought they could out-plan the free-market organic system. So [now in LEO, I must switch to LNO to fetch the text, via a linux-file/clipboard] when the new-user sees: " OFSTools.Unmount SRC OFSTools.Mount SRC LinuxFS . ~ " and is confused by the NEW apparent reason to <introduce the 'SRC' identifier before using it with the 'OFSTools' procedure, he doesn't notice the vital <dot> [second last character in the second line]. Also, designing functions with default args, so as to approach natural-language-style is a DEGENERATION of concise mathematical syntax towards natural language. The Wirthian argument for strong-typing is against default/hidden/potentially-ambigious assumptions. So, LNO's 2 special capabilities: * ability to access linux AND N-O partitions, * ability to run in a framebuffer [non X], comes with several problems -- including keybrd, mouse, display quirks/incompatibilities. Can anything else access N-O partitions from linux; like unix-Aos? I've got a vague idea that there's an ETH text explaining the different file formats -- should I search? Is there a text explaining the "thread-safe multimedia and GUI framework for active oberon", other than a monsterous *.pdf dissertation? Thanks, == Chris Glur.

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Re. Is this the smallest Oberon (program) platform to date?
by Chris Glur 30 Jan '12

30 Jan '12

CB wrote:- > One particularly interesting feature of the LPC1343 MCU is that when you > plug it into a PC's USB port it appears as a 'flash drive' on your PC. After > you have compiled and linked your program on the PC, all you have to do is > 'drag and drop' it to the drive to upload your program to the flash memory > of the MCU, With such a small PCB the USB connector is significant, and as a flash drive, the device would act as a 'receiver'. Where are the output connections for it to be a driver? The power-supply via USB confuses me, eg. when 2 female connector devices are interconnected. It seems that the documentation for USB is secret. Who remember's decades ago, when "IBM was introducing a new 'bus' which could not be 'decoded', so that the commodity producers couldn't clone the IBM-PC" ? == Chris Glur.

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Visibility of Oberon - was: Viability of A2 & ARM?
by Bernhard Treutwein 28 Jan '12

28 Jan '12

> The difference is in the culture. In Europe, universities > perform > academic research. In most cases, there is only and what happened in > Russia? There is quite some activity there with Wirth languages, e.g. see > http://oberoncore.ru I do not really understand, why M2 & Oberon gained > momentumin the east, but not in the West ...-- Bernhard

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Visibility of Oberon - was: Viability of A2 & ARM?
by Chris Glur 28 Jan '12

28 Jan '12

Bernhard Treutwein wrote:- > The difference is in the culture. Yes it's 'cultural' [socio-economically] determined; not based on technology. > In Europe, universities perform > academic research. In most cases, there is only and what happened in > Russia? There is quite some activity there with Wirth languages, e.g. see > http://oberoncore.ru I do not really understand, why M2 & Oberon gained > momentum in the east, but not in the West . It would be more accurate to say that the G7's decision IS based on momentum/inertia. As a previous writer told <his clients must consider M$ may make in future, so that he is not stranded with systems that no longer function>. Russia hasn't got the 'baggage' and can evaluate the choices on a technical basis. Unfortunately 'human factors' are the most important. Just consider what a disaster it is, when some of your keyboard keys are moved. --------------------- <the blog> said: ]I am almost sure that you can tweak System->Configuration to start that ]instead More Info can be found in Andre Fischers A2 User Guide (page 66 of ]http://www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch/wiki/Documentation/Front?action=download& ]upname=A2Documentation.pdf). How would I cutNpaste from the *.pdf to communicate via email or USEnet etc., like I can with N-O of the 90's? == Chris Glur. PS. can A2 for linux read the 'old N-O disk partitions'? LNO is problematic, in several ways. Is there a USEnet <android> group/s? It seems that *nix/android may crowd-out Windows.

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How's your mouse-mileage?
by Chris Glur 27 Jan '12

27 Jan '12

It seems as if I had previously failed to mail this? Is it the Chinese quality, or why do my optical mice get contact-bounce long before the old mechanical devices did. Since the mouse is so central to ETHO, the optical mouse is a great advantage. Being isolated, I know mostly only what I can read from inet: IMO mobile computing and touch screens are only for casual use, for the simple fact that the human body needs to sit at a work bench, to acomplish(sp?) hours of sustained work. So the optical mouse puts ETHO even more in the productivety lead, with it's unsurpassed heads-up working capability. The technological advance that seems to be taking too long is the move towards low-power-consumption CPUs like ARM which is already decades old. Since ARM is well matured, it's got linux tool chain/S and Oberon. But can ETHO be easily ported to the ARM? I've been watching the OneLaptopPerChild project for years, and can't understand why, only now are they talking about going from x86 to ARM. It was obvious from the start that for remote rural [school] usage, minimal power consumption was key, and schemes of hand-cranked generators ..etc. are absurd since such mechanical technology will remain expensive; I.e. doesn't follow Moore's law. You can 'grow silicon, like bananas', but not shafts and bearings. LNO & LEO boot 'instantaneously' [I've only booted N-O from fd0] which is also important for mobile and low-power consumption users. Of course it doesn't help much, since linux [for LNO & LEO] takes nearly as long as WinZ to boot. I've just realised that if ARM runs proper linux, it MUST run LEO & LNO !? Who did the Chinese-script for BB/A2 ? == Chris Glur. PS. It seems that the WinTel monopoly is being broken by android: *nix + ARM. Amazing that it took so long. I previously used to boot N-O from fd0, which gave me time to <interrupt via the shift-key>. Now I'd like to use this method to debug/adjust LNO, but it boots instantaniously. What should I do?

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Viability of A2 & ARM?
by Chris Glur 27 Jan '12

27 Jan '12

Bernhard T wrote:- > I think A2 would be much more interesting for teaching than linux ... > and ARM shouldn't really pose problems for A2 We need to 'factorise/elaborate' "interesting" ; thus: Oberon is "interesting" in that: * it is the Nth stage of a journey to simplify a block structured procedural language; * strong typing, further reduces the programmer's mental load, by delegating the checking to the computer [to the compiler]. Does A2 contain any similar 'universal principles' which contribute to economy of effort for maintaining and extending itself? Apparently unix was named as a spoof on its ancestor [competitor], multics which was said to be a complex failure. So if A2 can achieve <what is required> significantly more economically, why was it overlooked in the recent BIG mobile device OS repositioning? Eg. various options were considered by google, before deciding on <linux based android>. It would be interesting to read a side-by-side comparison [perhaps tabulated] of *nix <-> A2 Attribute1 achieved-by-X1 achieved-by-Y1 .... AttributeN achieved-by-XN not-needed. You can't overlook the forces of inertia re. socio-economic factors. Eg. LEO is cost effective because it can ride on the back of linux, which can ride on the back of x86 PCs. But the electric power inefficient WinTel monopoly seems to be being broken by the 'mobile' market. And the mobile-market is the inevitable Alvin-Toffler-3rd-wave element, where the 2nd-wave regimentation in schools, offices, factories via the clock is replaced by flexibility. Is there any need now for masses of people to syncronise their travel, to attend the professor's lecture? == Chris Glur.

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Can N-O Partition CF: scsi?
by Chris Glur 25 Jan '12

25 Jan '12

A WIn7 netbook, takes a 8Gbyte FlashMemory-disk, which allows it to run linux, without contaminating the Win7 disk. LNO can run under a FrameBuffer, i.e. without the bulky X-system [although I'd like to know how to increase the font size]. But these new devices use SCSI instead of IDE disks. So N-O's Partition.Tool which uses the syntax "IDE<deviceNo>#<partitionNumber> can't format [to type 76=H4C] the scsi partition, and we can't expect any linux or other utilities to format this little-known type. Does A2/BB format type 76 for a SCSI disk? Thanks, == Chris Glur.

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Re (2): Mail args wrongly changed during processing?
by peasthope＠shaw.ca 25 Jan '12

25 Jan '12

From: Chris Glur <easlab(a)absamail.co.za> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:00:00 +0000 >From memory: the `NetSystem.SetUser` uses "@" as an argument-separator, > whereas "@" is part of my username. > This design flaw was extensively discussed in the previous millenium. > And I've got special work-around-code from P.Easthope, for it. Incidentally, bug fixes are still available. http://carnot.yi.org/OberonPage.html Jump to the heading "Encoding of characters in a URI". Regards, ... Peter E. -- Telephone 1 360 639 0202. bcc: peasthope ... shaw.ca "http://carnot.yi.org/ " "http://members.shaw.ca/peasthope/index.html#Itinerary "

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Re: [Oberon] Mail args wrongly changed during processing?
by Chris Glur 24 Jan '12

24 Jan '12

Joerg wrote:- > To retrieve email with Mail.Panel, you need THREE things: > 1) The POP server address (in my case "pop.bluewin.ch") > 2) your username (in my case "joerg.straube") > 3) your password (in my case "ABCDEF") .. > Right to word "Server" click on "Get". As Oberon (or better NetSystem) > does not know the password for your mail server yet, you will get in > System.Log a command like > NetSystem.SetUser pop:joerg.straube@pop.bluewin.ch ~ >From memory: the `NetSystem.SetUser` uses "@" as an argument-separator, whereas "@" is part of my username. This design flaw was extensively discussed in the previous millenium. And I've got special work-around-code from P.Easthope, for it. -> System.Directory *Mail*\d == ... Mail.Obj 12.11.2002 18:27:36 79362 TextMail.Obj 12.11.2002 18:27:43 20099 At more than 3 times the size of TextMail, Mail is a disaster. ------------------ > Mail.Panel is very old (approx 10 years or so). So, better use newer > Oberon, AOS, A2... distros with things like IMAP and SSL. Can A2 do: d/l a 84 page *pdf, convert, eg. like standard `pdf2txt`, view the *pdf and Aos <textFile> TOGETHER on screen, in order to edit the AosFile, for line-len etc. differences, and while edit/checking the AosFile, intelligently colour the text, to add extra 'knowledge' to the text, and extract, perhaps by <screen capture> any graphical image from the *.pdf, and insert this to the AosFile/Gadget/Document, which can in future be instantly loaded and 'evolved' by re-editing, and from which eg. text can directly be copyPasted to email ?? == Chris Glur.

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