November 2006 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re. Oberon on PPC/Linux - plus++
by crglur＠mmi01.absamail.co.za 29 Nov '06

29 Nov '06

I'm not sure if I've successfully posted this before ? I'm using it as part of my painfull email Tx-authentication update. Looking at email headers shows that most mails don't have Tx-authentication. I wonder why my ISP is especially strict. And still I receive masses of spam which would be easily blocked. Klaas Punt wrote: > I was wondering if the Native Oberon simulator package > would run on the PPC. It is Linux and the source is available > I would think. > What 'Native Oberon simulator package' ? Can you provide a URL pointer ? > Anyway, I'll first set my teeth in Oberon System, which I > always thought to be covered by this mailing list, being an > ETH project. I believe Mac has a X86 simulator, because I once saw DOS-turbo-pascal running on a Mac ? So then you can perhaps run some of the Native Oberon packages. ========= Brantley Coile wrote: > I still have not received any responses to my request > for Oberon System binaries for the Ceres computer. > I hope they are somewhere at ETH. Can someone help > me out. I'm going to write a simulator to run them. Were they ever publicly released ? What does goog say ? I want ARM stuff. Someone pointed to a httpS source. Since N-O can't handle httpS, it should not be used, for N-O stuff ! Especially where there's no good reason to do so ? The use of unessential features, like using non-ascii chars for "'", ..etc. is a curse to be avoided - like top-posting, emailing in html format, using ps/pdf/..etc. where osi/ascii suffices. == Chris Glur. ========= testing towards Tx-authentication ?

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New BB release
by Ulrike Glavitsch 29 Nov '06

29 Nov '06

Dear BB users, a new crazy-fresh release is ready for download under www.bluebottle.ethz.ch. It contains the following new changes: - compiler warnings for unused constants, variables, types and procedures - faster loading of text files that shortens compilation times - bug fixes - usability enhancements, e.g hot key support Best regards Ulla Glavitsch -- ETH Zürich Ulrike Glavitsch Eggler Institut für Computersysteme Clausiusstrasse 59 CH-8092 Zürich Tel.: +41 44 632 70 49 Fax : +41 44 632 13 07

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Re. New BB release
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 29 Nov '06

29 Nov '06

Ulla Glavitsch wrote: > a new crazy-fresh release is ready for download under > www.bluebottle.ethz.ch. > It contains the following new changes: > - compiler warnings for unused constants, variables, types and procedures > - faster loading of text files that shortens compilation times > - bug fixes > - usability enhancements, e.g hot key support How big are these downloads ? Can BB do internet facilities, like full http fetch, eg. http[S], and various transmit authorisations for emailing ? Re. hot keys: is there a trend away from 'heads up' mouse driven ? The <F8> of N-O on start up is appropriate because it's done only once. The only high frequency Key-function of N-O, is <F1 = mark>, which would be nicer to be at <esc>. eg. for 'blind use'. Thanks, == Chris Glur. >> test Tx-authenticate N+9

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? need list Global variables
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 29 Nov '06

29 Nov '06

I seem to remember that there is a M.P to list the global variables. I want to finally investigate the use of:-- > Configuration.Marker set save set at saved position = fail > Configuration.Marker set this set to current viewer = ok > Configuration.Marker set system in system track > Configuration.Marker set user in user track > Configuration.Marker set X Y at absolute pixel position X, Y = ok > Configuration.Marker set X% Y% at relative pixel position X, Y = fail > Configuration.Marker save system save marker in system track > Configuration.Marker save user save marker in user track > Set the star marker under program control which nobody else seems to know about ?! == Chris Glur.

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Re. Oberon on PPC/Linux
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 27 Nov '06

27 Nov '06

Klaas Punt wrote: > I am setting up a Linux system on my PPC box > (a Mac Mini G4 actually). > What is the best I can do to use Oberon on > such a system, and is anyone using this kind > of combination? There are several Linux > Oberon systems, which I've read about but no used. This mailing list is for ETHoberon and its descendants; specifically native oberon which has a special human interface. Which I may not like. The 2 linux based native oberon that I know: LNO & Linux-ETHoberon are AFAIK x86-based. So they won't run on PPC/Linux. The people who use the Linux oberon independant of X86, read NewsGroups: comp.lang.oberon == Chris Glur.

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ETHoberon wiki
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 27 Nov '06

27 Nov '06

Re. N-O/BB unintended effects interfacing Win/Linux ? crglur(a)gmail.com wrote: > > We need the 'wiki-like-facility' to capture collaborated efforts ! Edgar wrote: > You should be able to use from Linux the wiki at > > http://www.edgar-schwarz.de/mm/SwOberon OK, this seems to have potential. The fact that someone has 'looked at it' several months ago and apparently abandoned it, confirms that the documentation is sub-optimal ? The best documentation, introduces only the minumum facts initially and in the right sequence. Let's try an exercise: construct a mimimal instruction document for using your 'moimoi' ? I'll make the 1st draft and you will edit it ? --------- instruction document 1st draft:- 1. fetch http://www.edgar-schwarz.de/mm/SwOberon which you will be able to read and write-to. 2. Reading is as per normal web-pages: follow the blue hot-links. 3. For writing: 3.1 to write to an existing node/page.... 3.2 to create a new node/page: * Locate the node/page which you consider should be the parent of your intended new node/page. * ? go to 'edit mode' by <?see some prompt some where?> * by entering a [WikiName] (ie a word which has other than the first character in upper case, you will be creating the link to the new page, named <WikiName>. * ? go to the newly created page by <?see some prompt some where?> * ? add contet to the newly created page by ... ? * see <the appropriate prompt> to save the edit before exiting * <the appropriate prompt> previewing before saving and exit. * during the create/edit process, other users are locked out. !! this last statement is an example of giving uneccessay info. Avoiding giving extra info is as important [and as difficult] as avoiding doing premature optimisation !! --------- end of instruction document 1st draft -------- I'm now not at the box which *wrote* my first attempt. But I kept what I wrote. Here's the text that I pre-wrote and pasted, via linux:--- -> Tx authorisation is becoming essential --> confirm the rfc[s] by telneting - manually ---> insert a minimum required test/confirm for Tx authorisation, initially just 'hardwire' your ID & password, for later refining to handle Base64 de/encoding and also several differnt [ID & password]s. Use modular design, so that other [than initial LOGIN] types of Tx authorisation, csn be easily added later. ====== 27 Nov 2006 ======== --------- end of pasted text ------ >From what we can see .../mm/NativeOberon gives back its own formatting; adding the chars "*", "o". And importantly it looses the original line breaks. Lets just have a few words explaining how to acheive line breaks, (without diversions about XML and macros if possible). Thanks, == Chris Glur.

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Re (2): [Oberon] Problem with AOS user interface
by edgar＠edgarschwarz.de 26 Nov '06

26 Nov '06

John Drake <jmdrake_98(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Thanks for the info! I'm using a Toshiba Sattelite Me too. And my menu key is in the upper right corner. Besides the windoze key. Let's me do some moving around. Cheers, Edgar

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Re: [Oberon] N-O/BB unintended effects interfacing Win/Linux ?
by edgar＠edgarschwarz.de 26 Nov '06

26 Nov '06

crglur(a)gmail.com wrote: > We need the 'wiki-like-facility' to capture collaborated efforts ! You should be able to use from Linux the wiki at http://www.edgar-schwarz.de/mm/SwOberon Cheers, Edgar

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Oberon on PPC/Linux
by Klaas. 26 Nov '06

26 Nov '06

Hi, I am setting up a Linux system on my PPC box (a Mac Mini G4 actually). What is the best I can do to use Oberon on such a system, and is anyone using this kind of combination? --- Klaas Punt

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Re. PET ? IDE & syntax coloUring ?
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 26 Nov '06

26 Nov '06

> >This doesn't explain what e.g. means: > > Pet.Options \UBC instead of Pet.Options "0,1,2" > Koen Desaeger wrote: > This would mean enable auto U ppercase, auto B oldface and > auto C omment (sets italic font) > ... OK, thanks. > There was no documentation for PET except the sources ... I had to check > them myself to answer you. > That confirms my repeated call for a wiki-type facility for outsiders to be able to add value. eg. also documentation. > Some useful key combinations: > <ctrl> + T: delete to end of line > <ctrl> + L: delete current line > <shift> + space: select word at cursor > <ctrl> + '*': bold face word at cursor OK, except the first 3 would only be for someone who can't do mouse chording, which IMO is a main feature of S3. ---------- > > I previously mentioned the advantage of syntax colouring. > > The type that I've seen, is with coloured reserved words and special > > tokens ; and bracket matching hi-lighting. > > Chris Burrows wrote: > Colouring keywords and reserved words is not too bad. Where it starts > to get tricky is when colouring strings are involved, but at least these > are limited to the current line. The trickiest part is colouring > comments. e.g. if you have just inserted '*' into your text, it has to > inspect the previous character to check if it is a '('. If it is, it > then has to scan and colour all of the subsequent text, possibly to the > end of file until the next closing comment pair '*)' Conversely, delete > an '*' and you have to check whether a comment has now been > removed or not. It would have to do this sort of processing on > every keystroke, cut and paste etc. etc. I don't want to insert '*', but rather select <this is a comment>. And I want to see inserted: "(* ? *)". And I want the cursor to be at '?'. Which N-O's existing PET editor already does, by code-completion. I prefer the "select one of valid [displayed] choices", rather that the code-completion, approach. Ie the editor should be constrained by the languages syntax, like a menu-tree is. Hi-lighting reserved words marks the 'corners' of the construct. I.e. if you can clearly see where IF, THEN, END are located, you know better how the statement nesting is. But colouring the whole statement, with all the adjacent nestings a different colour is MUCH more powerfull. S3 or similar users can test it with 'wipe & dab'. I don't know why I never used it before when struggling with modifying existing code ! I'm evolving a whole bag of tricks to use linux-oberon, without which, a first time user may find linux-oberon non-productive. I know that ETH insiders have got tools which they are hiding under the table. How else could they put out the code which they do ? > A phased implementation of syntax-colouring might be more feasible. I > have seen partial solutions that are much easier to implement but still > give useful feedback. e.g. the first step might be just to bold > 'breaking' keywords e.g. RETURN, EXIT. > Yes phased implementation is always better where possible. But my idea is not an extended editor, but rather a menuing-system. > > As previously asserted, I don't see why 'keys' should be selected, > > when 'whole constructs' could be offered. > > And the different constructs could be differently coloured. > > But the nesting level would determine the colour, rather than the > > construct type. > > > > I have this facility available to me in several development systems that > I use (e.g. Delphi, Visual Studio, Blackbox Component Pascal but I don't > make any use of it. Maybe my 30-year Pascal / Modula-2 / Oberon / CP > programming habits are too ingrained, but, even with my two-finger, > one-thumb typing technique I find it quicker to let my fingers > automatically type the constructs instead of having to jump around in > pre-defined templates. Remembering all of those shortcuts is a > challenge as well! The need to remember anything is a no-no. You should only have to *recognise* and select. I.e. menu driven. For me, it's all about leaveraging the existing fantastic S3 interface. I've got 5 versions of N-O [v2.3.2,2.3.6,2001-beta, LNO,linux] with multiple copies on various disks, partitions, which all are usable 'objects having their own knowledge'. Potentially great chaos, except the unified key is that they all keep their 'latest status' in the 'same place'. Who's name I don't need to remember. Humans especially left brain engineers remember space and colour naturally. There's a 'corner' on the screen, who's name I don't need to remember, since S3 doesn't require me to key-in. But I can grab it to show you now [by cutNpaste]. It's called "System.Log". So for all my 20 odd, still living S3 installations, if I need to ask "what's your current status ...what project did you last handle..?", I just need to run the version and 'look at the special-corner and *think* open-the-text-corresponding-to-that-corner' and the file:System.Log opens for *this* installation, with the info. Use factoring to try to reduce mental load ? --snip -- > 2. A Procedures Index (Similar to 'TAGS' functionality on other systems) What is 'TAGS' functionality ? I've seen it repeatedly cited lately. > When working on a source code file, an alphabetically-sorted list of > procedures is automatically maintained in a separate window. > Double-click on a procedure name and it automatically takes you to the > definition of that procedure in the source code file. > > 3. An Imports Index > > An alphabetically-sorted list of imports in the current source file is > automatically maintained in a separate window. Double-click on an import > name and it automatically opens the corresponding source file in a > separate window. Having these close at hand is great, provided no screen area is permanently allocated to them. That's one thing about colouring: it adds intelligence without consuming extra screen area. ------------ The existing S3 tools Watson & Columbus are a great help. Similarly a syntax driven editor [table driven, for adaptability to several languages - these days you need to borrow from several languages: C, python, java ...] would drive productivety IMO. == Chris Glur.

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