October 2003 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Oberon Database
by Dan Parnete 19 Sep '05

19 Sep '05

Hello, I have read this list archives, the documentation inside the distributions, some extra found on the web and I understood. Database is a Tabu word in this community, and is better to not talk about. There is no trace in any distribution (excluding the commercial BlackBox) and the new Bluebottle project doesn't intend to implement one. Ok. It's a choice of live. But don't tell me none of you never needed to put some data altogether. I can't believe nobody extended at list the Library code to more flexible collections management. I saw some database projects started long time ago. Where are this implementations? In other words: if I need a database, have I write it myself? Dan

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Re: [Oberon] Support for Realtek RTL-8139 with Native Oberon
by frey＠inf.ethz.ch 05 Jan '05

05 Jan '05

> I'm running Native Oberon on a Pentium-II class machine. > How can a network card such as, Realtek RTL-8139 be > configured in Native Oberon ? PCITools.Scan was able to > detect this card as a PCI device. The driver is currently only available for the new Bluebottle OS. http://bluebottle.ethz.ch It should not be too difficult to make a Native Oberon driver out of the Bluebottle OS driver. But... I have no time to do this myself. --Thomas Frey

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The underscore nuisance, a little hack.
by Vasile Rotaru 03 Nov '03

03 Nov '03

Hi, all Using the FontEditor, I have slightely modified the Oberon??.Scn.Fnt in such a way as to make the underscore an underscore. I have renamed this set of fonts to Oberon10u.Scn.Fnt, Oberon12u.Scn.Fnt, and so on. (u stands for underscore). Intended usage is something like this: insert in the code for EditTools.open (the part which is handling Unix/Ascii files) the following two lines: Texts.SetFont(W, Fonts.This("Oberon12u.Scn.Fnt") ); <original code> Texts.SetFont(W, Fonts.Default); and you'll have in the Oberon text an underscore which is more like a real one. (That is if you need it). It is not that hard, to modify the fonts by hand, but if you want them you can get them from here www.webpark.cz/vrotaru/no/ou.zip Regards, Vasile

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Re: [Oberon] Gadgets programming
by edgar＠edgarschwarz.de 03 Nov '03

03 Nov '03

Jacques Eloff <eloff(a)cs.sun.ac.za> wrote: > I'm trying to use gadgets as output for an interactive display. Basically, I > want to place Iconizers on a panel and link certain Iconizers with Line > objects to create a chart. Perhaps you want to have a look at COSIMO. Also one of Oberons forgotten pearls. I has gadgets linked with lines which follow if you move the gadgets. Cheers, Edgar -- edgar(a)edgarschwarz.de "http://www.edgarschwarz.de" "http://www.edgar-schwarz.de/forum/oberon" Running Active Oberon Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. Albert Einstein

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Fw: [Oberon] Native Oberon on SourceForge
by Bernhard Treutwein 02 Nov '03

02 Nov '03

Although the SF is currently very empty :-), I think this is a very good idea. It allow also "non Oberonians" to take a look at the code ... What kind of ASCII markup is it ? Shouldn't we try to map the Oberon text to XML (which could preserve also "active" elements) ? I'm still not using Aos/BlueBottle, but isn't there some tool for converting Text to XML? My switch to Aos is delayed since I've got the wrong dual-processor machine (beware of Adaptec 7895) and the wrong Perrmedia2 graphics board (beware of the Permedia2v chipset, used in AccelStar II 3D card and most probably the Elsa Winner 2000/Office ViVo). Pieter: It would be nice if you start populating SF with the Markup code. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pieter Muller" <pieter.muller(a)alumni.ethz.ch> To: "ETH Oberon and related systems" <oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch> Cc: <edgar(a)edgarschwarz.de> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [Oberon] Native Oberon on SourceForge > edgar(a)edgarschwarz.de wrote: > > >Why would you take the trouble to convert Oberon texts ? > >Can't CVS also store in binary format ? > > > > > Yes, but one of the main advantages of a source repository is the > history of changes and the ability to diff revisions to see what changed. > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 7:59 PM Subject: [Oberon] Native Oberon on SourceForge > Earlier this year I started setting up a home for Native Oberon on > SourceForge. The only source currently in the CVS repository is > CvsClient, a module to convert Oberon texts to ASCII with markup. If > there is enough interest I'll continue setting this up. > > See http://nativeoberon.sf.net > > -- Pieter > > >

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Re: [Oberon] n-o: Rx.Tool ? span multiple lines
by edgar＠edgarschwarz.de 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

Hi Chris, > I'm getting emails like this (from win users) :----------- > <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span lang=3D= > EN-ZA > style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> > I have made some remarks for you. You are welc= > ome to > phone me anytime.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> > ----------- > And it is politically incorrect for me to tell the sender to "do it properly". > I suspect they feel they must have a spell checker available ? I just think about extracting information from something like: <html> <head> <title>Clusterball - The Best Internet Game</title> <base target="_self"> <style>table {font-size: 8pt}</style> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="cb_chapters.css"> </head> <body> <h3>History:</h3> <hr> <table border='0'><tr><td><img border='0' src='http://clusterball/images/wi_china.jpg'> </td><td><font size='2'>Date: 2003-08-03 01:20:49<br>Venue: China<br>Time: 10 min<br> Players: 7<br></tr></table><table border='0' width='75%'><tr><td bgcolor=#EDEDED align='center'><font size='1'><b>Placing</b></td><td bgcolor=#EDEDED><font size='1'> <b>Nick</b></td><td bg ... So we have a similar problem at the moment. I now do it like this: CONST (* For scanner *) TagClass* = 8; ArrClass* = 9; TAB = 9X; CR = 0DX; LF = 0AX; TYPE Scanner* = RECORD (Texts.Scanner) (* nextCh *) ls*: ARRAY 1024 OF CHAR; (* long string *) llen*: INTEGER; (* long len *) END; PROCEDURE Scan*(VAR S: Scanner); VAR i: LONGINT; ch: CHAR; BEGIN i := 0; LOOP (* skip whitespace *) IF (S.lib = NIL) OR ~(S.lib IS Fonts.Font) THEN EXIT ELSIF S.nextCh = CR THEN INC(S.line) ELSIF (S.nextCh # " ") & (S.nextCh # TAB) & (S.nextCh # LF) THEN EXIT END ; Texts.Read(S, S.nextCh) END; IF S.nextCh = '<' THEN (* Read a tag '< ..... >' *) Texts.Read(S, ch); WHILE (ch # '>') & (i # LEN(S.ls)-1) DO S.ls[i] := ch; INC(i); Texts.Read(S, ch) END; WHILE (ch # '>') & (S.lib IS Fonts.Font) DO Texts.Read(S, ch) END; (* Drop rest of tag if too long. *) S.ls[i] := 0X; S.llen := SHORT(i); Texts.Read(S, S.nextCh); S.class := TagClass; ELSIF S.class = TagClass THEN (* Read char array after a tag until next tag. *) ch := S.nextCh; WHILE (ch # '<') & (i # LEN(S.ls)-1) DO S.ls[i] := ch; INC(i); Texts.Read(S, ch) END; WHILE (ch # '<') & (S.lib IS Fonts.Font) DO Texts.Read(S, ch) END; (* Drop rest of tag if too long. *) S.ls[i] := 0X; S.llen := SHORT(i); S.nextCh := ch; S.class := ArrClass; ELSE (* Do normal scan. *) Texts.Scan(S); END; END Scan; PROCEDURE ScanCb*(); VAR S: Scanner; cbName: ARRAY 32 OF CHAR; t: Texts.Text; BEGIN In.Open; In.Name(cbName); NEW(t); Texts.Open(t, cbName); Texts.OpenScanner(S, t, 0); LOOP Scan(S); IF S.eot THEN EXIT; END; IF S.class = TagClass THEN IF Utilities.Pos("h.php?cid=", S.ls) > -1 THEN Out.String(S.ls); Scan(S); Scan(S);Scan(S); Scan(S); (* rest of player *) Scan(S); Scan(S);Scan(S); Scan(S); (* rank *) Scan(S); Scan(S);Scan(S); Scan(S); (* title *) Scan(S); Scan(S);Scan(S); Scan(S); (* Exp *) Scan(S); Scan(S);Texts.Scan(S); IF S.class = Texts.Int THEN Out.Int(S.i, 5); Out.Ln; ELSE Out.String("Error"); Out.Ln; END; END; ELSIF S.class = ArrClass THEN (* Get some interesting data. *) IF (Utilities.Pos("Time: ", S.ls) = 0) OR (Utilities.Pos("Players: ", S.ls) = 0) OR (Utilities.Pos("Date: ", S.ls) = 0) THEN Out.String(S.ls); Out.Ln; END; END; END; END ScanCb; Just a little hack of two hours. Perhaps you can use something similar. Cheers, Edgar -- edgar(a)edgarschwarz.de "http://www.edgarschwarz.de" "http://www.edgar-schwarz.de/forum/oberon" Running Active Oberon Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. Albert Einstein

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n-o: Rx.Tool ? span multiple lines
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

I'm getting emails like this (from win users) :----------- <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span lang=3D= EN-ZA style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> I have made some remarks for you. You are welc= ome to phone me anytime.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> ----------- And it is politically incorrect for me to tell the sender to "do it properly". I suspect they feel they must have a spell checker available ? >From my previous work with Rx.Tool (before I abandoned it [perhaps not permanently] when the 'new version' made all my ET.Do scripts, which used Rx.*, non-functioning) I vaguely remember that Rx.* can't span multiple lines. How else would I easily automate fixing this Win-Word-garbage. I was thinking of deleting all text between "<" and ">". ----------- BTW I was disapointed that I did not succeed with ET.* to simple place 5-spaces [left margin] for each line of a Dos-formatted file: unlike Edit.Open files and unintuitively IMO, the Copy/Select parts of the bottom viewer doesn't behave like the top viewer. ETGuide.Text reads: "ET.Right Indents the most recent selection by adding a tab or space character to the front of each line in the selection. The character used depends on the initial character of the first selected line. " Perhaps somewhere in the hidden text-strech between the top and bottom viewer, there was a 'tab' which made the system change gear from using 5 spaces to 5 tabs ? Or is it the interaction of adding spaces and autoindenting ? How would I add 5 spaces with RX ? I think RX needs to use Desktops.OpenDoc frames ? It's cumbersome using RepAll and having to count the spaces. One want's to have a 'single click solution'. I'm surprised of so little mention of using 'scripts' in n-o. I use them extensively with linux, eg. to convert Backup.WriteFiles to linux format. Even when I don't [want to] remember how to pass args to scripts, I can just cut the general command and paste it to the command line and edit the args. I don't [want to] know how to convert n-o line terminators to linux format, even tho' I've seen and used the command line a hundred time. The 'human/psychology' of the minimalist concept of cut-past-edit replaces a lot of 'technology'. == Chris Glur.

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Re: Rx.Tool
by shark＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

Chris, cg> How would I add 5 spaces with RX ? RX.SetSearch ({~c} c) X1 RX.SetReplace " " X1 Set the insertion mark where you want to start. RX.Search Repeat RX.Replace as many times as you want. cg> I think RX needs to use Desktops.OpenDoc frames ? Originally RX needed Gadgets and for a few years now it has worked on a Text. A history is at the head of RX.Mod in Native 05.01.2003. This might be another motivation to install Native 05.01.2003. cg> I vaguely remember that Rx.* can't span multiple lines. As I understand that restriction remains; don't understand the algorithm well enough to know whether it could be removed. Regards, Peter E. http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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Re: Native Oberon on SourceForge
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

> --- Bernhard Treutwein wrote: > > Although the SF is currently very empty :-), I think > > this > > is a very good idea. It allow also "non Oberonians" > > to take a look at the code ... > > John Drake wrote: > Good point. And if this was a "non Oberonian" they > would the source in a format they could browse > without having to install Oberon. That reminds me > of another project I've been "toying with" in my > head for several years now. I call it the > "Oberon convergence project". Basically > the idea is to "factor out" code modules that have > little or no dependence on any particular Oberon > system and could be used in various "flavors" of > Oberon. (V4, Pow, OOC, System 3, ect.) For example > the regular expression module RX only imports > module "Texts" and only does that to dump a DFA to > the log. I've imported this module into Oberon V4, > recompiled it and used it without any problems. I like this idea. It helps leaverage non-Sys3 contributors. > > My switch to Aos > > is delayed since I've got the wrong dual-processor > > machine (beware of Adaptec 7895) and the wrong > > Perrmedia2 graphics board (beware of the Permedia2v > > chipset, used in AccelStar II 3D card and most > > probably > > the Elsa Winner 2000/Office ViVo). > > I got burned with an "incompatible" Permedia card > also. (I don't even know where it is). Currently > I'm using and ATI Rage card. Of course I'm not > getting any of the 3D accelerator benifit. I > really think some of us need to put our heads > together and do an accelerated ATI and/or NVidia > driver. Yes, that's what will happen when I replace (the real-estate-space used by) my WORKING 7/24 scrap 486's with Pentium(s) so that I (as advised) can try blue-bottle ?! == Chris Glur.

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cooperative bug-fixing and refining & underscore
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

--- easlab(a)absamail.co.za wrote: > > Well I just see a list of directories which I can't > > enter with > > the 3 (successivley refined) methods which I used to > > approach it: > > WebVia email, Desktops.OpenDoc ^ , Linux: lynx !! > > What happened to "any browser" ? > > Any thing only accessible by (non standard) > > Bluebottle is not for me. John Drake wrote: > I think you misunderstand what is going on here. Correct. I still think that http is (should be) for hyper-text. And I'm reminded of this when n-o has problems fetching http*.tar.gz or http*.ps ... > This is a WebDAV repository and hence it's accessible > by any standard WebDAV client. BlueBottle has such > a client. It should be possible to port the WebDAV > client to Native Oberon, but that isn't complete yet. > As Edgar mentioned in an earlier mail WebDAV requires > XML. I'm the only one working on porting XML to > Native Oberon (to my knowledge) and I haven't looked > at that for some time now. > > Also my personal view is that N.O. enthusiasts should > at least look at BlueBottle since all N.O. code I've > seen so far works under BlueBottle fine. > > At any rate an online co-operatively maintained > distribution of Oberon will require a versioning > system of some kind. CVS is still the most popular > version control system (it powers SourceForge) but > there currently is no Oberon based CVS client and > I don't see one on the horizon. WebDAV is a strong > upstart and there is an Oberon WebDAV client, > although currently it only works with BlueBottle > and WinAOS. You make a convincing argument ! Edgar wrote:- > > > So why do you hesitate to give Bluebottle a try ? > > >No time ? > > > No Pentium processor ? > > > > Both: observations suggest that Bluebottle will fail > > the cost-benefit > > test. Have I told about "the boys that are always > > polishing their > > vehichle, but never make a proper journey" ? > > Nativeoberon is a work-horse for me, not a toy. > I suppose this makes a big difference as to what > part of the world we are talking about. Here in > the states we literally "throw away" Pentium 100s. > And Bluebottle is out of the box capable of doing > "real work" out of the box, not just "toy" stuff. > For me the ability to do XML is huge. I've seen > very little cost and very much benifit to > BlueBottle. When WinAOS came out my only > motivation for porting XML to Native Oberon > (so I could use it with PlugIn Oberon) went > away. I'll look at it again when I have time. > If there are N.O. users interested enough > in XML and/or WebDAV to help with development > I'll look at it again sooner. No, no, 'real life' is different. Installing a free-gift Pentium would cost 2 days. Due to a change I have no access to a printer which I previously used to print 10 pages a month. I though a good brisk walk to the 'print shop' would be welcomed exercise. Three days later it's still not working: * the printer box is M$ and detects/blocks all my diskettes which come off my M$ box with russian-flag virus. Another 'project'. * the margins and page numbering is not good. * etc ... talking is differerent from doing. ========================== John, you wrote: > > ... There is an easier way to change the > > default font that doesn't require recompiling > > anything. In Native Oberon system variables are > > kept in the file "Oberon.Text". Just change the > > line: > > > > "DefaultFont"= Syntax10.Scn.Fnt > > > > to > > > > "DefaultFont"= Oberon10u.Scn.Fnt > > I'm guessing that you have the 'Win' version ? It's slightly different on non-Win versions. > > Vasile wrote: > I guess, for this to work smoothly there must be also modified bold > and italic versions of default Oberon font. And with correct names. > This can be done. > > Besides I was assuming that there is a mapping (from ASCII to > typographic signs) > > - (ASCII minus) -> m-dash > _ (ASCII underscore) -> n-dash > > and that just modifiying the Oberon font will affect the way hyphenation > is done. Well, looks. Now, after a bit of of trying it seems that both > Script.Mod and Hyphen.Mod use - (ASCII minus) for hyphenation. So, does > anyone know which is the use of "Oberon underscore"? > This BAD-HYPHEN is THE repeated example of poor coordination in the n-o community: * 5 - 10 years ago when I started, I raised the issue, * every year somebody raises the issue, * next year somone will again raise the issue, * it is listed with a patch in some of the documentation, * Oberon10.Scn.Fnt which is very pleasant is perhaps a special 'classic', and when you make your own underscore, you don't know eg. the correct length. A perfect classic is not perfect if one pixel is wrong. I've spent quiet some time extending Oberon10.Scn.Fnt to use the ORD(Char) > 127 for the french, german and swedish chars. Sometimes when I read News etc off the inet, I still find some chars which need to be done, eg. the 'copyright' sign and the "i" with 2 dots. If we had a proper collaborative repository, I/we could submit the font(s) for further updating. Working on ver-2001 (and also I believe on V2.3.6) there are problems as the set of 256 chars become allocated bit maps. As if some structure is overflowing. This was a problem when I started using the extra 128 upper chars for Cyrillc - allocating bit-mapt to their 'official' values. If no one else fixes it, I may look at the source code one day. My impression of the 'mapping' is as follows: * each char of a text is an octet, + apparently the 'header' of the text (file), maps stretches of chars to various *.Scn.Fnt (and colour ?), * the various *.Scn.Fnt files map each of their 256 entries to a bit-map. * using FontEditor.Panel , you can fetch any *.Scn.Fnt set; edit any of the 256 entries ; Store the new/edited bit-map back and when the *.Scn.Fnt (which behaves like a 'library' in that the stored update is not immediately available) is re-loaded, you see the new char(s). * FontEditor.Panel has facilities to show what the edited char would look like when the new/edited *.Scn.Fnt is re-loaded The correct view of (especially collaborative) software, is that it is never correct/complete, and it does not belong to an individual. Various individuals can add-value over time. Can WebDav and/or CVS acheive this ? I'm sceptical of technological solutions. Wirthism is based on a few key, universally valid ideas - not technology. == Chris Glur.

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