July 2002 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re (2): Bluebottle OS available
by muller＠inf.ethz.ch 26 Aug '02

26 Aug '02

On 12 Jun 2002, Stefan Salewski <Salewski(a)PHYSnet.Uni-Hamburg.de> wrote: > Which file have I to edit to change network settings > like IP-Address? There is http://bluebottle.ethz.ch/Current/Aos.Par > but I cant find a file Aos.Par on the Bluebottle partition. (I thought someone else would answer this earlier...) The IP settings are configured at boot time, so it depends how you are booting the system. If you are booting via DOS noboot.exe, you have a DOS-based ASCII config file aos.par that contains the parameters. If you are booting directly from the partition, the settings are in the partition itself. To edit them: 1. OFSTools.Watch (to see your boot partition, the one called AOS) 2. Partitions.GetConfig ^ (select the partition name, e.g. IDE2#5) This produces a text containing the current settings. Edit them and execute the Partitions.SetConfig command at the top of the text to store them. The most important TCP/IP settings are LinkDevice, LocalIP, LocalName, Netmask, Gateway, Domain, DNS0. They are documented in the Aos.Par file, which is also available on the default file system. > How can I stop the moving skeleton or the moving bunny? I think the button for this was left out of the menu by accident. To stop all animations ("bunnies"), in AosTools.Tool, execute Aos.Call Bunny.Free ~ You can also type the Bunny.Free command in the command launcher. -- Pieter -- Pieter Muller, Computer Systems Institute, ETH Zurich / MCT Lab, Zurich Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/

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(no subject)
by Ghost in the Machine 06 Aug '02

06 Aug '02

Hello All - Total newbie here. No background in Pascal nor Modula2. I've installed Eth Oberon System 3 Native within a single DOS file (loopback?) and have installed both Apps1 and App2 plus Doc.Arc and Tutorials.Arc. onto my Compaq DeskPro XE 560 Pentium 5 60mhz, 16 meg of memory, 850 meg IDE hard drive with 24x CD romdrive. My video card is an old ATI "All in Wonder" with only 500k memory installed which max's out at 800x600 for other OS. Oberon will only allow me 640x480x4. :-\ On my Compaq Presario with Cirrus Logic video I can do 1024x768 but the text is so small on my little 15" monitor I can barely see it. At 800x600 some of the toolbar(?) header buttons are offscreen. I'm guessing Oberon developers have larger monitors and have no problems with 1024x768? I've noticed that further development has moved to "BlueBottle" (whatever that is all about) which requires a minimum of hardware I do not presently have available for Oberon. Hoping this won't be a "bottleneck" (pun inteneded). When I execute the installed Oberon System 3 native and try to configure the CD drive I see a note that I cannot use the ATA IDE driver for the CD drive if I am using ATA IDE for the hard drive. AFAIK the CD is not going to be accessed in this version of Oberon which means the CD-audio player is kaput. When I try to look at the system files directory I get zip even after typing in "*.Mod" or "*.Text". In Gadgets using the popup I get files listings but then clicking on the .Search button allows me no way to add search terms. Same with Grep from Gadgets. In short, I can't see what files I have, can't search file listings or within displayed files, which really leaves me as a spectator here. Any suggestions? Charles.Angelich DOS the Ghost in the Machine! http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/

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Re: [Oberon] install
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 31 Jul '02

31 Jul '02

Pat Hacker wrote: > > Perhaps this is in the documentation somewhere and I just haven't > > discovered > > it yet, is there a way to quickly map the import hierarchy for modules? > > It's always nice to have a map when entering new territory. Patrik Reali wrote: > You can get a such a list with the command System.ShowModules , > which shows the modules loaded in the system (the one you need the > most will be there). The modules at the bottom of the list are the first > loaded, so you can traverse from the bottom up. Yes System.ShowModules traces the actual modules loaded, which would presumably show not-yet-loaded modules required. I guess by purging already loaded modules (as far as possible) more info would be available ? What's the command: Free ??? > On a first pass, you can limit yourself to study the module interfaces by > using > Watson.ShowDef ^ > and textually selecting the name of the module to display. > You can go through the source code on a second pass. Since Watson.ShowDef ^ doesn't show IMPORTs, it's not clear to me how this would help to map the IMPORT sequence -- or even the set ? ! Oh, I see that some Watson.ShowDef ^ DOES show (in RED) IMPORTs. Not my code. Nor eg. Watson.ShowDef Script.Store ~ What's wrong ? ----------- File Chapter5.Text shows: 5.2 The Module Hierarchy Learning to program the Oberon system involves studying the Oberon module hierarchy. ..... Figure 5.1 Extract of the Oberon Module Hierarchy ...... Summary of the Oberon Module Hierarchy Module Name Purpose Inner Core Kernel Memory management and garbage collection Disk Disk driver (PC Native only) FileDir File directory support Files File handling Modules Oberon module loader and command execution Outer Core Display Display driver Printer Printer driver ...<and much more> BTW after years and thousands of hours of n-o usage the often problematic aspect of several tutors: not being able to scroll to the middle of a bigger than screen object (eg. diagram), or even more annoying not being able to scroll to (for certain) the text following the diagram; is explained. Apparently because the author(s) used a higher resolution than VGA. This gives them more stuff on the screen. Also using the FontEditor is very cramped under VGA. -- Chris Glur. PS. Charles.Angelich wrote: > As an example - W98SE has something like a 50 meg file of just modem > drivers for it's PNP to work as well as it does. Does anyone foresee Oberon > having a 50 meg modem driver addon? Seems unlikely. Unlikely, since that's an order of magnitude greater than the whole OS. > I am disappointed that text runs off the right side of the screen as > we debate the need to correct the error. Mail.CutLines <CharCount> * will wrap the lines to <CharCount> length, of the 'marked' (F1) viewer. Pat Hacker wrote: > I installed NO 2.3.6 on ... Here's an example of how complexity lead to chaos: (and many of these problems are solved in the aviation industry; one technique is to remove many decisions by reducing them to formalised rules). 1. Pat Hacker's query appropriately mentions his installed version. 2. contributor A answers without echoing the 'installed version'. 3. contributor B extends A's contribution assuming that Pat Hacker is using the latest version. 4. a discussion follows which is irrelevant to Pat Hacker's original query.

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Re: [Oberon] install
by mcintosh＠vima.austin.tx.us 31 Jul '02

31 Jul '02

| "Pat Hacker" <pat(a)picoworks.com> wrote: | > Perhaps this is in the documentation somewhere and I just haven't discovered | > it yet, is there a way to quickly map the import hierarchy for modules? | > It's always nice to have a map when entering new territory. | muller(a)inf.ethz.ch wrote | The Native Oberon release doesn't currently have a tool for this. | Normally the programmer creates a .Tool text for every project, | with the modules listed in topological order, typically in a | ready-to-click Compiler.Compile command. In the latest alpha | version all the modules of the system are listed in Native.Tool | in Build/SourceB.zip . | I thought that this was a pretty serious shortcoming in the system. So I wrote a program that goes by various names, such as Gather, AlmGather, depending on which epoch the archive was made. This program was specifically designed to read a list of source files, and to read all of the IMPORT statements in those files until all of the imports have been examined. The output viewer is sorted in compilation correct order. In fact, there is a ready to execute command followed by the file list. If any sources are not found, they are listed as missing sources at the top. Files that are not imported, i.e., they are only referenced in the command line, are marked in red in the output, in the current version. I think that this is a really nifty utility, one that I use frequently. I don't think that it was ever put into the distribution. (and TarDump was dropped) This program differs from "Build" that is in some of the S3 (ETH Oberon) releases in that Build only sorts the list that it is given, and AlmGather hunts on the disk for all of the additional implied imports. A module that is at the top of a library may be listed first in the list, and all of the modules the library imports will be listed at the top of the file list. This makes it easy, for example, to execute a command AlmGather Oberon.Mod TaylorCustomLibrary.Mod MyNiftyApp.Mod ~ and produce a "package" that has intelligent segregation to it. I did run this program in the "BlueBottle" environment as one of the first things after I had a stable install. I have de-commissioned that install while working on another project that required me to re-format the disk and change the network and video cards, but after I am back in town next week, I'll be glad to boot BlueBottle from my CD archive, and put AlmGather and the BlueBottle results on the web. There is a V4 version as well as an S3 (ETH Oberon) version located on the web at http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/languages/oberon/ETHOberon/Contrib/Alm/AlmGather… http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/languages/oberon/ETHOberon/Contrib/Alm/AlmGather… I would love to hear from anyone who thinks it is useful. -- Aubrey

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install
by Pat Hacker 30 Jul '02

30 Jul '02

Hello I'm new to this mailing list. As I've just installed Native Oberon 2.3.6 I'd thought I'd add my comments to the forum. Since I'm new, if any of my comments are inappropriate for the list please don't hesitate to contact me off line. Thanks. I installed NO 2.3.6 on an Epox MVP4M/J with an AMD K6 500 MHz using VESA 2.0 1024x768. The installation went amazingly well. After having been in VGA purgatory with another community supported operating system this was refreshing. Unfortunately I have a DEC 2114x NIC and not a 3C 905B so Ethernet is not up and running just yet. I greatly appreciated the files on the server fitting on diskettes thus allowing me to complete the installation. Perhaps this is in the documentation somewhere and I just haven't discovered it yet, is there a way to quickly map the import hierarchy for modules? It's always nice to have a map when entering new territory. Pat Pat Hacker - pat at picoworks.com

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Re: [Oberon] install
by muller＠inf.ethz.ch 30 Jul '02

30 Jul '02

"Pat Hacker" <pat(a)picoworks.com> wrote: > I'm new to this mailing list. Welcome! > Perhaps this is in the documentation somewhere and I just haven't discovered > it yet, is there a way to quickly map the import hierarchy for modules? > It's always nice to have a map when entering new territory. The Native Oberon release doesn't currently have a tool for this. Normally the programmer creates a .Tool text for every project, with the modules listed in topological order, typically in a ready-to-click Compiler.Compile command. In the latest alpha version all the modules of the system are listed in Native.Tool in Build/SourceB.zip . The Builder module has some functionality for scanning source files and creating a topologically sorted import hierarchy, but it isn't cleanly exported. I poached the attached module from some old test code. It shows the module import dependencies by dumping the loaded module descriptor list. It may overstate the imports, since it also shows some hidden module dependencies created by the compiler. It should work on 2.3.6, but I've only tested it on the latest Alpha. -- Pieter MODULE Temp; IMPORT SYSTEM, Kernel, Modules, Texts, TextFrames, Oberon; VAR W: Texts.Writer; PROCEDURE ShowModules*; VAR T: Texts.Text; M, N: Modules.Module; size, i: LONGINT; BEGIN T := TextFrames.Text(""); M := Kernel.modules; WHILE M # NIL DO SYSTEM.GET(SYSTEM.VAL(LONGINT, M.entries)-24, size); Texts.WriteString(W, M.name); Texts.Write(W, 9X); Texts.WriteInt(W, size, 1); Texts.Write(W, 9X); Texts.WriteInt(W, M.refcnt, 1); Texts.Write(W, 9X); Texts.WriteHex(W, SYSTEM.ADR(M.code[0])); Texts.WriteString(W, "H"); Texts.Write(W, 9X); FOR i := 0 TO LEN(M.imports)-1 DO N := M.imports[i]; Texts.Write(W, " "); Texts.WriteString(W, N.name) END; Texts.WriteLn(W); M := M.next END; Texts.Append(T, W.buf); Oberon.OpenText("Modules|System.Close System.Free Edit.Search Edit.Store", T, 384, 300) END ShowModules; BEGIN Texts.OpenWriter(W) END Temp. -- Pieter Muller, Computer Systems Institute, ETH Zurich / MCT Lab, Zurich Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/

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COMs 3, 4
by peter_easthope＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 30 Jul '02

30 Jul '02

In a message dated July 19 and addressing the subject "Installable file systems and subdirectories" Pieter mentioned that after his Ph.D. examination at the end of the month, work will begin on the next release. Rather than invest time and frustration trying to put coms 3 and 4 in the old beta release---which might never work out---we can simply wait for the new release. Pieter, congratulations for completing the exam. Regards, Peter E. Peter Easthope http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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Oberon Documentation
by Paul Reed 30 Jul '02

30 Jul '02

There have been discussions here and elsewhere about the fragmented nature of the documentation for the various Oberon systems. In my opinion, one of the greatest handicaps to new users of Oberon is that the three original Oberon books are not now easily available. These are Martin Reiser's User Guide and Programmer's Manual, Reiser and Wirth's Programming in Oberon, and Wirth and Juerg Gutknecht's Project Oberon (see the Oberon Bibliography on ETH's website - I'm not writing this online :] ). Not only are these books a joy to read, but importantly they strongly proclaim the Oberon philosophy ("keep it as simple as possible, but not simpler"). This tenet is rather taken for granted in some subsequent documentation. The philosophy of "how can we make it simpler" rather than "how can we add more features" can be a bit of a shock to users of other software systems, particularly Windows and Linux. Thanks to Pieter Muller, I actually have a Ceres 3 computer sitting on my desk. I sometimes invite people to guess the size of the operating system after they have seen a quick demonstration. 3-4MB has been the lowest guess so far, which is a factor of 20 too big. It was only possible to achieve this economy by starting again and deciding what is essential, and what are "bells and whistles". The lack of the latter in the Oberon systems can lead some people to long for the warm fuzzy feeling you get when using other OSs. Since discovering Project Oberon in a computer bookshop in London in 1996, I haven't looked back. I don't use the Oberon System as my primary OS, although I escaped from Windows and have been using FreeBSD for the last 18 months. However, Oberon is my primary programming language since I developed a DOS, Win32 and Unix Oberon compiler based on Wirth's original; see proceedings of the Joint Modular Languages Conference (JMLC) 2000. I strongly recommmend people to read some of the early writings about Oberon before slagging it off or just becoming frustrated. You'll need to find a good library though (remember those?). Take the Oberon bibliography. If you only read one book on the subject, make it Project Oberon. If you only read one paper, make it Wirth's more recent "A Plea for Lean Software". If you can't get to a library and you only have 20 minutes, read Wirth's last ETH paper, "An Essay on Programming" (this last is available on-line). So, to finish my "Oberon Changed My Life" rant, I recommend (i) read some Old Testament stuff, (ii) find a 3-button mouse, and (iii) don't try using Oberon as your main OS or even on your main machine until you've decided what (for you) is essential, and what's "bells and whistles". Paul Reed Managing Director, Padded Cell Software Ltd www.paddedcell.com

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access COM4
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 30 Jul '02

30 Jul '02

ghost wrote: > Would it be possible to break out the V24.Mod from a working install of > Alpha and email it to me as an attachment? I should be able to snatch > it from within Oberon Native/Beta and replace the non-working module > Y/N? > That might be the most practical, except: V24.Mod is text and doesn't need to be 'attachment', with n-o you can just compile and test run it straight in the received e-mail (best first save: System.CopyFiles V24.Obj => V24preCOM4.Obj ~) Can you compile and test "hello world" yet ? Can you read the tutors and cut and paste into your own notes ? You should 'work in n-o' and just copy your file(s) to/from a FAT dir for emailing, until you've got n-o email working; rather than working in MS and just going to n-o to experiment. Else stick to MS. > Time flies when you're running in circles. ;-) Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. -- Chris Glur. PS. with your views you might be very dissapointed with the n-o e-mailing & News facilities. All the background house keeping facilities are missing. You have to do much by hand - again, the need for fast reflex mouse cording. I've built some font-end utils. I only use n-o e-mailing & News facilities, because the COMBINED n-o system, especially its mouse cording text manipulation surpasses any other system I know. I.e. it's not e-mail or News facilities on their own that matters, but how they integrate into an overall text facility for the projects that they serve. Work as a team.

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ZipTool.Extract ?
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 29 Jul '02

29 Jul '02

peter_easthope wrote: > Digression: I get error messages when > extracting Source1.zip and Source2.zip > for the latest alpha, 23.06.2002. > Retrieved a 2nd copy of each and still > got errors. Source3.zip extracts OK. > > Has anyone extracted these two zip > files successfully? No. Has ZipTool.Mod been modified since alpha 2001 ? Thanks for 'walking in front to take the flack' for alpha 2002. I don't remember having problems with ZipTool alpha 2001, but now ZipTool.Directory Temp.zip ~ shows: DUG_IDE.C DUG_IDE.EXE READ.ME == OK ZipTool.Extract Temp.zip READ.ME ~ shows: ZipTool.Extract Temp.zip READ.ME file encrypted / compression method not supported, could not extract File Temp.zip looks like standard PK-format: " PK.......DUG_IDE.C....DUG_IDE.EXE.....READ.ME..." Moving Temp.zip to Linux and applying: unzip Temp.zip , expands OK. Why not ZipTool.Extract Temp.zip READ.ME ~ ? Does ZipTool.<command> handle non n-o file names ? -- Chris Glur. PS. ZipTool.ExtractAll Temp.zip ~ shows: ZipTool.ExtractAll Temp.zip DUG_IDE.C bad file name 0 files extracted, 1 errors So I'm guessing that READ.ME can't be extracted because the 'bad file name': DUG_IDE.C comes first ? Again Zip.Tool , ZipTool.Extract are 'inconsistently' named.

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