September 2011 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re: [Oberon] Oberon Day 2011 Recordings (Jack Johnson)
by Paul Reed 06 Dec '11

06 Dec '11

> 1. Re: Oberon Day 2011 Recordings (Jack Johnson) > I have a few questions about your part of the keynote. ... > Did you do your UTF-8 integration from scratch or did you look at > other code for inspiration? Did it require extensive modification, or > mainly just to Texts? What is your end goal for UTF-8 integration, and > how do you see that ultimately affecting the simplicity of the system? I added UTF string handling as an experiment (with a view to using it in other projects), and tried various schemes, including UTF-16/UCS-2 and even UTF-32 before finally settling on UTF-8. I didn't find much code for inspiration, since most of what's available is in C ;-) but I was very definitely inspired by the story of the invention of UTF-8 and its integration into the Plan 9 from Bell Labs operating system. UTF-32 is the only implementation where there is a linear mapping between character length and byte length (UTF-16 has surrogate pairs, which breaks that), but it is impractical on small systems because of the memory footprint. UTF-8 performs well in practice, except for some Asian locales, in which case an alternative encoding would be sensible (and indeed advised by the Unicode documents). Re-implementing Texts using UTF-8 is a really nice exercise (Luca?) :), since the details of the Text system are so well explained in the book. Certainly you would have to decide whether Files.Read would read a byte or a UTF-8 char, and be careful about lengths and byte offsets. I had an attempt, but ran out of time and will have to return to it [insert apology to Fermat here]. For the Oberon System demo, it wasn't strictly necessary so it didn't get in (along with a lot of other things I need to go back and do properly). > Are you using or have you considered using Oberon-07? How might that > affect the rest of the original Oberon System code? Yes it's all Oberon-07, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. The main changes were obvious: removal of SHORTINT, LOOP, and WITH, for example; and this doesn't really change the text of the book that much, which is the aim. > Have you had chats with Wirth or others about what they might have > done differently if they could do it all over again? :) I'm reminded that they asked Ken Thompson what he would change about Unix, if he had the chance to go back and do it again. His answer was that he would add an 'e' on the end of the 'creat' system call. I once asked Prof. Wirth, after a retrospective lecture on Pascal, Modula and Oberon, what he would do differently. He simply said he would have called them Pascal, Pascal-2, etc. > I noted the > discussion of Objects in Appendix A of Project Oberon and aside from > the Gadgets implementation it alludes to the idea that if the Objects > module had existed at the outset it might have further simplified the > original system. This is Prof. Gutknecht's view, yes. Especially since the changes would have been small, for the power it gives. But with power comes responsibility, something we're not much good at in software IMNSHO. As well as simplicity, and elegance, there should also be a clarity test. That's why the book stands out. > Did you consider resurrecting slim binaries, or does that add more > complexity than it removes? No, and yes. The slim binaries approach relies on the more complex OP2 compiler, with its high-level intermediate representation. I have no IR, I basically just translate RISC instructions into x86 opcodes (if it's not a RISC module, eg if it's a device driver). This adds a few hundred lines at most to the compiler (for x86 and for ARM32 put together). > Are the FPGA-based systems available? Working on it. The compiler generates code which runs on the FPGA (as does the Oberon-0 compiler, more-or-less unchanged, from Compiler Construction). But more hardware needs to be implemented for the system to be self-hosting, which is the aim. Cheers, Paul

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Re: [Oberon] Re. Another peculiar failure; FTP.PutFiles.
by peasthope＠shaw.ca 18 Sep '11

18 Sep '11

Folk, From: easlab-absa <easlab(a)absamail.co.za> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 13:29:23 +0200 > You must spilt the heirarchy:- > 1. your network > 2. ETHO: are you trying something new/untested ... I've never seen a problem with FTP for Linux systems. Seems almost certain the problem is in ETHNO. > 3. ETH seems to be sleeping/broken My impression is that any current work in the Oberon dynasty is focused on A2. I've done little more with A2 than install it and would not have noticed a communication problem. What is AHV by the way? > For confirming ETH's servers, I often use somethink like this > logger: `<theLogger> <File of ListofURLs> <File results to>` You lost me there but thanks for the interest, ... Peter E. -- Telephone 1 360 450 2132. bcc: peasthope at shaw.ca Shop pages http://carnot.yi.org/ accessible as long as the old drives survive. Personal pages http://members.shaw.ca/peasthope/ .

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Re. Another peculiar failure; FTP.PutFiles.
by easlab-absa 18 Sep '11

18 Sep '11

Peter E. wrote:- > Executing FTP.PutFiles Test44989NoGo ~ yields a frozen Cantor. > <Ctrl>+<Break> <Ctrl>+<Break> yields the following trap report. > -- snip -- > Is 44989 octets special for the filesystem? > Is this a bug in FTP? > In NetTCP? > In NetBase? > In the 3Com driver? > Any ideas? There's too much to unravel here. You must spilt the heirarchy:- 1. your network 2. ETHO: are you trying something new/untested 3. ETH seems to be sleeping/broken 4. Switzerland seems broken: definitely the local embassy; and AHV is trying to screw me. For confirming ETH's servers, I often use somethink like this logger: `<theLogger> <File of ListofURLs> <File results to>` #!/bin/bash echo ' get headers to $2' for url in `cat "$1"`; do echo $url >> "$2"; echo >> "$2"; # bare echo == newline curl -I "$url" >> "$2"; echo "<><><><><>" >> "$2"; done ----------- end of script to fetch headers. This fetched the URLs listed in <arg1> which were:-- http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/ http://carnot.yi.org/NetworkExtant.jpg ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/license.txt ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Unix/release.txt ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/ ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/LinuxBased/ ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Unix/x86.Linux/ And listed what the <headers> were in <arg2> which gave me:- <><><><> http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/ HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 02:00:19 GMT Server: Zope/(Zope 2.8.12-final, python 2.3.7, linux2) ZServer/1.1 Last-Modified: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 02:00:19 GMT Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Set-Cookie: vcmp-p6-cookie=R1297467152; path=/; expires=Mon, 19-Sep-2011 02:01:18 GMT Via: 1.1 www.oberon.ethz.ch Cache-Control: max-age=3600, no-cache=set-cookie Expires: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 03:00:19 GMT Accept-Ranges: bytes <><><><><> http://carnot.yi.org/NetworkExtant.jpg HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 02:00:03 GMT Server: Apache/2.2.16 (Debian) Last-Modified: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:31:49 GMT ETag: "13d0c-5dc21-4ad00c421d740" Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 384033 Content-Type: image/jpeg <><><><><> ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/license.txt <><><><><> ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Unix/release.txt <><><><><> ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/ <><><><><> ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/LinuxBased/ <><><><><> ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Unix/x86.Linux/ <><><><><> So the first 2 entries, including your URL, seem ok. If I had time, I'd first check from my records, that curl -I <ftp URL> is valid syntax, like it is for http. `curl <get the header>` is usefull to confirm the file-size before d/l-ing some suspected monster-File. BTW such fetches operate in background while you are fetching your email etc. == Chris Glur.

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Another peculiar failure; FTP.PutFiles.
by peasthope＠shaw.ca 16 Sep '11

16 Sep '11

Folk, Yesterday I encountered a failure of FTP.PutFiles in ETHNO, reminiscent of "http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/newfaq.html#error2" "Fixed errors ... 3. Copying a file of a specific length causes the system to freeze". Repaired years ago. Yes, error 3 in the list but the HTML label is error 2. My network configuration is illustrated by "http://carnot.yi.org/NetworkExtant.jpg". Given two text files, Test44988Go containing 44988 octets and Test44989NoGo containing 44989 octets, Cantor can send each of these files to Dalton with FTP.PutFiles. Dalton can then send the files on to Carnot. No problem. Cantor can also send Test44988Go directly to Carnot but can not send Test44989NoGo and several larger files directly to Carnot. Executing FTP.PutFiles Test44989NoGo ~ yields a frozen Cantor. <Ctrl>+<Break> <Ctrl>+<Break> yields the following trap report. Is 44989 octets special for the filesystem? Is this a bug in FTP? In NetTCP? In NetBase? In the 3Com driver? Any ideas? Thanks, ... Peter E. TRAP 13 Keyboard interrupt (PC Native 05.01.2003) Input.UnsafeBreak PC = 14105 note1 = "Warning: Interrupting a module" note2 = "may invalidate its invariants" note3 = "and make it unstable." NetIP.Timer PC = 5202 cur = 00000000H delay = 0 item = 00000000H now = 77616 NetBase.Poll PC = 1566 @for = 1 @for = 0 i = 0 item = 00000000H j = 36 prno = 27776 src = (, 00000000X, 000000C0X, 000000E5X, $, 00000000X NetTCP.Receive PC = 12438 C = 00286C80H beg = 0 buf = 00000000X dst = 1759072 l = 1759072 len = 1 len0 = 2670432 NetSystem.TCPReceive PC = 4210 C = 00286C60H beg = 0 buf = 00000000X l = 1 len = 1 res = 0 NetSystem.ReadString PC = 6337 C = 00286C60H ch = 00000000X ch0 = 00000000X i = 0 s = "" FTP.ReadResponse PC = 719 S = 00286740H code = "" cpos = 0 i = 0 j = 0 line = "" sline = "Ok to send data." time = 0 FTP.PutFile PC = 10076 C = 00000000H F = 00050B20H R = 00000008H S = 00286740H locName = "Test44989NoGo" remName = "Test44989NoGo" FTP.PutFiles PC = 18978 Sc = 00000018H loc = "Test44989NoGo" rem = "Test44989NoGo" Oberon.Call PC = 4860 Mod = 0006AEA0H P = FTP.PutFiles PC = 18666 i = 4 j = 12 name = "PutFiles" new = FALSE par = 001751A0H res = 1 TextFrames.CallCmd PC = 12027 F = 00174D60H cmd = "FTP.PutFiles" new = FALSE par = 001751A0H pos = 885 res = 1 TextFrames.Call PC = 12915 F = 00174D60H S = 00000048H h = 0 hint = "" i = 0 new = FALSE pos = 873 TextFrames.Edit PC = 20137 F = 00174D60H Keys = {1} M = 00000060H R = 0000004CH X = 121 Y = 104 beg = 0 buf = 00000000H ch = 00000000X end = 0 keysum = {1} pos = 873 text = 00000000H time = 0 TextFrames.Handle PC = 21222 F = 00174D60H F1 = 00000000H M = 00000020H ET.Handle PC = 10006 F = 00174D60H M = 0000000CH T = 0016F340H handled = FALSE ml = FALSE tF = 00174D60H MenuViewers.Handle PC = 4365 M = 00000014H Main = 00174D60H Menu = 0016FF80H V = 00174E20H V1 = 00000000H Oberon.Loop PC = 8578 M = 00000010H N = 0000000CH V = 00174E20H X = 121 Y = 104 ch = 00000020X keys = {1} oldshift = {} shift = {} System.Init PC = 20240 F = 00278660H S = 00000044H T = 002785E0H Wt = 00000050H ok = FALSE OFSBoot.Call PC = 426 c = System.Init PC = 19716 cmd = "Init" i = 11 j = 4 m = 00163C20H protect = TRUE OFSBoot.BootSystem PC = 2780 s = "System.Init" OFSBoot.$$ PC = 13 @SELF = 0003F560H SELF = 0003F560H -- Telephone 1 360 450 2132. bcc: peasthope at shaw.ca Shop pages http://carnot.yi.org/ accessible as long as the old drives survive. Personal pages http://members.shaw.ca/peasthope/ .

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software license agreement
by peasthope＠shaw.ca 16 Sep '11

16 Sep '11

Hello ETH Folk, At the bottom of http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/ is "license agreement". A click on it yields "550 Failed to change directory." A real HTML document rather than a txt retrieved by FTP could be an improvement? Yes, I tried a message to the webmaster. Regards, ... Peter E. -- Telephone 1 360 450 2132. bcc: peasthope at shaw.ca Shop pages http://carnot.yi.org/ accessible as long as the old drives survive. Personal pages http://members.shaw.ca/peasthope/ .

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ETHO miscl: LEO + LNO + N-O ?
by easlab-absa 02 Sep '11

02 Sep '11

Pieter Muller wrote: > Could someone from the ETH please contact me to obtain an > archive of historic Oberon files from lillian? Yes, since I had to buy a Win7 device to connect via my wireless-connection, I've realised what inferior garbage apps are foisted on the new generation. The WindowsLiveMail default for handling Mail & News is a Baroque nightmare compared to eg. Forte-Agent, which I used with Win-3.1, before my ISP told that I'd have to get W95, and I said screw-you and turned to ETHO & Linux. I believe the latest Forte-Agent is still good: clear HCI. ================ When you are reading ETHO in full-screen-mode, and you want to extract text-stretches for your notes, there's a potential problem or inconvenience, since you haven't conveniently got a <workspace> to enter your ETHO commands. The macroKeys app: EditKeys.* is convenient here. I've added to my "p1" macro, which I've been using, thus:- p1 ("EditTools.OpenUnix /tmp/ObnTmp" call) ' ( "CRGtrace.Slctn2ObnTmp" call) So, typing "p1" anywhere in a/the textGadget, followed by the <hotKey>/<insert>, removes/consumes the "p1", so the eg. full screen textFile is not altered, and opens the clipBrdFile: /tmp/ObnTmp. I use "P0" & "P1" in linux to read and append to the same clipBrd. LNO-1999 also lists 2 clipboard instructions for communicating between LNO and the linux-system; but I as was never able to get them to work. A wider question, is whether newer-LNO is open source; eg. to investigate why it loses keyboard access after being switched-out-of. This seems to be related to X-windows. IIRC in frame-buffer-mode it deos NOT lose the key-brd, but the colours are wrong, besides we normally use X-mode. Interestingly, to old/1999 LNO version, which could read DOS-ETHO-files doesn't have these key-brd & display problems; but since that can't read N-O:format files, it can't do anything which LEO doesn't already do better. ========= I want to use some of the facilities of EditKeys/<keyMacro>, but I haven't been able to understand the source code. And I'm wondering if it's based on a well known and published algorithm? That's why I want to 'copy from *nix to ETHO'. According to EditKeys.Tool & docos, after you add/define a new keyMacro, you just need to: EditKeys.Reset & EditKeys.Read <your file of keyMacros for *this* project> ~ to enable the new-set of macros. This doesn't work, and the need to reboot, when I still used N-O, is removed under LEO, where you can just start a new/extra LEO to test/debug. Also System.Free EditKeys doesn't allow the new macro to run. EditKeys.Mod is documentes as being last updated ca. '93 IIRC. V4 is dated later ca. '98. But ETHO's has got a wrapper added. I'm worried/suspecting that no one else is using EditKeys ? Now I can use the clipBrd to copy this LEO-written text, to Linux, to get past the mailSendAuthorisation. Thanks, == Chris Glur. PS. I've just realised that my new/additional key macro is redundant for ETHO, because in ETHO, you can just immediately paste into the existing `p1-fetched` clipbrd and re-save it.

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