December 2008 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re: Web servers
by Chris Glur 01 Jan '09

01 Jan '09

Joerg wrote:- > Your hosting provider (not the ISP) is www.verio.com. If you have your > own server at home you won't need that any more. Will it be economic to have a home-server, when boxes can be shutdown and rebooted to the 'same state' by saving the relevevant RAM conditions to disk ? Altho' I don't pay for electricity, society pays for me. Since 'laying out the various bits & pieces to familiar locations' is a major task, in increasing productivety in eg. Linux, a killer app. which is long over due, would allow a power-down and reboot to continue from the same 'layout'. I suspect it may already exist ? == Chris Glur. PS. 2 more trivial tasks that LEO + vnc allows you to do, with the the look & feel of NO: * spell check, * someone complained that my NO email date fields were not RFC compliant [NO's Sytem.Date 's output is not RFC compliant] apparently linux's `date` output is. Previously I'd have to paste it into a linux file and read that with LEO, which is too much bother. Now with LEO + vnc you can see the field to be copyPasted all on the same screen.

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Web servers
by Douglas G. Danforth 31 Dec '08

31 Dec '08

Hello, I have some very primitive questions about 'servers' that are triggered by HP's recent announcement of a $600 'home server'. I currently pay $40/month to Verio. o They handle my domain name GreenwoodFarm.com . o They host my web pages. o They handle my email. Now for the questions: o Can I have a box at home that does everything that Verio does? If so I can eliminate Verio and save $40/month. I should also have a gob more disk space so I can greatly expand the number of web pages I currently show. o How do I become my own ISP (is that the correct thing to ask)? Is this legal or will the 'net' object. I currently am accessing the web via a wireless connection to one of several free wireless nodes here in Menlo Park, CA USA. o I assume that there are several ways to use AOS/BlueBottle to act as a server (I don't want to get into the details of how to do that right now but only need to know if this is true). o Any other significant details I need to understand? -Doug Danforth

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Re: Webservers
by Antony Tersol 30 Dec '08

30 Dec '08

If your primary aim is to reduce expenses and increase page capacity, you might be as well served by finding a more economical service. $40/month seems very high. For example, our site is hosted with the following plan: Economy Plan 10 GB Space | 300 GB Transfer 3 mo:$4.99/mo 12 mo: $4.74/mo SAVE 5%‡ 24 mo: $4.50/mo SAVE 10%‡ 36 mo: $4.25/mo SAVE 15%‡ Plan Features • 100 Email Accounts • FREE! Software • 10 MySQL Databases • 50 Email Forwards • Forums, Blogging, Photos • Hosting Connection • $20 Google(R) AdWords(R) Credit1 • $25 Microsoft(R) adCenter Credit† • $50 Facebook(R) Ad Credit†† • FREE! Google Webmaster Tools When we switched to this company, moving our site from the previous host was painless to us and invisible to any user of our site. The new host took care of changes to the DNS. Regards, Antony

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Re: [Oberon] Re: Replace with null-string ?! + VNC
by peasthope＠shaw.ca 21 Dec '08

21 Dec '08

Chris, I might still misunderstand your arrangement but these are my thoughts since the message on December 18. > ... the client is seeing its own screen instead of the server. A Linux GUI must exist before Oberon is running. When the Oberon VNC client is started, does it merely show a copy of the Linux GUI? Two copies of a GUI on one display does not strike me as helpful. Regards, ... Peter E. -- http://members.shaw.ca/peasthope/ http://carnot.yi.org/ = http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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Re. Linux-ETH-Oberon VNCclient to drive Linux-CLI-apps. = viable !
by Chris Glur 21 Dec '08

21 Dec '08

I finally have the Linux-ETH-Oberon [LEO] vncClient running linux applications on the same box. The main intention, of being able to paste textStrings between the linux application and a LEO menu is viable - with practice. ======= log of tests:-- Desktops.OpenDoc "127.0.0.1:5900" (VNCViewerDocs.NewDoc) ~ == same old 'self view' Desktops.OpenDoc "127.0.0.1:5901" (VNCViewerDocs.NewDoc) ~ == New 'view' = unfamiliar linux-like-panel System.Grow it & keyin 'pwd <cr>' == see : /root [which I can copyNpaste to LEO] !! Now test copyNpaste 'from' LEO. === copyNpaste from VNCclientFrame to LEO other frames is erratic & confusing - initially !! ..etc .... too much ..!! -------- NB. it's strange, initially to be seeing a linux frame [in the UserTrack] and have to use NO key reflexes to paste. -------- !! ps2ascii <*.pdf> scrolls in LEO's vncClientFrame. gs <*.pdf> shows the rendered *.pdf with colour images; which can perhaps be cut/extracted with some NO tool: Rembrandt ...etc ? Previously I had to use linux > snapshot/frameGrabber & import the *png to LEO. Altho' LEO has snapshot, it crashes my present setup. emacs runs in LEO's vncClientFrame !! As previously stated, the intention is to be able to leverage ETH-Oberon's nice HCI for dumb CLI linux applications. In particular, to input to linux from an own designed/evolved menu & capture [suitably coloured] the output for quik-learning purposes. == Chris Glur.

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Linux-ETH-Oberon VNCclient to drive Linux-CLI-apps.
by Chris Glur 21 Dec '08

21 Dec '08

> > Every thing works beautifully, except that the > > client is seeing its own screen instead of the server. > peasthop wrote:- > I'm still not certain of your hardware configuration. > Is everything on one machine or are Linux and > NO on separate machines? OK, it's my fault for using the wrong terminology: I'm running linux, on top of which I'm running Linux-ETH-Oberon; which I've mistakenly being refereing to as 'native oberon', because it has the look and feel of NO, - which DOSbased S3 does too. Of course, the whole idea of being able to run, otherwise clunky linux-CLI-apps. with the feel of NO, is what obsesses me. > Are you starting a GUI before the VNC server is > running? Yes, I previously listed my actions in sequence. > The tightvncserver can run without a > GUI present. Yes, but: I never managed to 'connect' to tightvncserve. I was able to connect to [what the menu/icon called VNC but ps shows as] remoteFrameBuffer. > Once tightvncserver is running, the > VNC client can start. You will then have just > one GUI provided through VNC. That's what I'd expect. Altho' for degugging purposes it's more convenient being able to 'switch to' and see the server than merely detect it's presence by 'ps' eg. > > > Since you've got a 'server connected to the inet' > > whereas I get a different/dynamic IP from the ISP > > ever time that I dial up ... > > Through DHCP my ISP assigns a dynamic address > to Joule also. OK, I wrongly/unreasonably assumed you had a permanent online presence since you have a http server. > A system can have more than one address. What do you mean by 'system' ? My pc running linux can have multiple users. I would have expected each one including root, to have, potentially a different IP. > For local use, /etc/hosts should give the system > one of the private network addresses. Wow !! I've always been looking only at /etc/host <-- not hostS!! That's why I hate this typing-in-crap-style, when a NO-type menu would be much better. BTW since I'm writing this in LEO [linuxEthOberon] I can clux immeditely to the contents of /etc/hosts , which is: 192.168.1.2 vnc test and /etc/host is 127.0.0.1 localhost.localdomain localhost where apparently 127.0.0.1 is the loop-back IP. One debugging approach which I used too, was to try a VNCserver/client pair of the various linux flavours which I've got -- on the same box, together of course. And I got 'client recursively displaying itself inside itself', which I killed quickly. Which seems related to my problem with the LEO-client; ie. it shows the desktop where it is running [with 1 second delay for transmitting the display update], ie. 'displays itself'. AFAIK, linux being multi-user, I should be able to run a VNCserver under 1 user with his own IP and also run a VNCclient under another user on the same box. At one stage linux / netstat showed: # netstat Active Internet connections (w/o servers) Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address State tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1:5900 127.0.0.1:1310 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1:1310 127.0.0.1:5900 ESTABLISHED -------- Then after I killed the x0rfbserver [which is what the linux> menu> vnc launched], it showed: # netstat == Active Internet connections (w/o servers) Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address State tcp 1 0 127.0.0.1:1310 127.0.0.1:5900 CLOSE_WAIT tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1:5900 127.0.0.1:1310 FIN_WAIT2 ------------------------------ Which sort of makes sense and confirms some workings. AFAIK what I need is a linux vnc-server which: * will run linux applications from key/mouse input received from the LEO-client and will pass the display image to the LEO-client; * it's IP:port and password must be set-able or disclosed, so that the LEO-client can be setup to match. I don't use a networked printer, but I guess that's a similar problem ? == Chris Glur.

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Re: [Oberon] Re: Replace with null-string ?! + VNC
by peasthope＠shaw.ca 18 Dec '08

18 Dec '08

Chris, > Every thing works beautifully, except that the > client is seeing its own screen instead of the server. I'm still not certain of your hardware configuration. Is everything on one machine or are Linux and NO on separate machines? > Every thing works beautifully, except that the > client is seeing its own screen instead of the server. Are you starting a GUI before the VNC server is running? The tightvncserver can run without a GUI present. Once tightvncserver is running, the VNC client can start. You will then have just one GUI provided through VNC. > Since you've got a 'server connected to the inet' > whereas I get a different/dynamic IP from the ISP > ever time that I dial up ... Through DHCP my ISP assigns a dynamic address to Joule also. A system can have more than one address. For local use, /etc/hosts should give the system one of the private network addresses. Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_network You can then address 192.168.1.2 for example. That is exactly what happens in my servers. > ... can you run a linux-vnc- > server and mail me the details to connect via > my linux-NO-client ? Currently my firewalls block that. For troubleshooting your VNC connection, the points above will be more helpful. Regards, ... Peter E. -- http://members.shaw.ca/peasthope/ http://carnot.yi.org/ = http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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Re: Replace with null-string ?! + VNC
by Chris Glur 16 Dec '08

16 Dec '08

> There is a picture on my Web server. You will > probably see the aspect ratio squashed. > http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/Cantor.html Good, Thanks:- }In the lower left viewer, the Oberon VNC client displays }a Web page from Mozilla in Debian Etch on newton, }which also has a TightVNCserver. The upper left and lower }right viewers are from the Oberon "browser". }The upper right viewer is the System.Log. That's what I'd expect. But for me: UserBottom mirrors [with delay] UserTop. And if I paste from SystemTop to UserTop, then as you said, the CR and font, colour [identical bit map] is echoed to the vnc-client, with a delay and not written left to right, since rectangles of the screen, rather than chars are transfered. Every thing works beautifully, except that the client is seeing its own screen instead of the server. Since you've got a 'server connected to the inet' whereas I get a different/dynamic IP from the ISP ever time that I dial up, can you run a linux-vnc- server and mail me the details to connect via my linux-NO-client ? I guess you'd just setup a new user, with an emptyish HOME-dir, that you've confirmed you can see with your NO box nvc-client ? And mail me what command to use. If it was a NO-vnc-server you could run Sisiphus, and see what he looks like in BC winter from S.Africa summer. ------ As I see it there are 2 aspects to vnc: 1. the IP:port of the client and server, and 2. the rest of it. It's the 1st aspect [networking] which is my problem. If I can connect to an outside server of known IP, then I'll have confirmed that my linux-NO-client is OK. Thanks, == Chris Glur.

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Aos/A2 system size
by Stauber Sven Philipp 16 Dec '08

16 Dec '08

Dear all, Please let me comment on this: >C.G. wrote: It's not obvious to me why Aos is so much bigger than N-O. It is not much bigger. This is more a packaging issue. The CD image contains many things that are not required to run an A2 system. Actually, you just need about a dozen modules to run an A2 system (see http://www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch/wiki/Documentation/Kernel) To give an impression: Packages included in A2 CD-Image: System 213 Files ( 200 source code files) ApplicationsMini 121 Files ( 90 source code files) Applications 179 Files ( 140 source code files) GuiApplicationsMini 123 Files ( 94 source code files) GuiApplications 201 Files ( 150 source code files) Education 13 Files ( 13 source code files) Build 16 Files ( 7 source code files) Contributions 153 Files ( 126 source code files) Oberon 152 Files ( 118 source code files) OberonGadgets 204 Files ( 151 source code files) OberonApplications 271 Files ( 144 source code files) OberonDocumentation 60 Files ( 25 source code files) OberonVoyager 111 Files ( 111 source code files) OberonAnts 127 Files ( 127 source code files) TrueTypeFonts 12 Files ( 0 source code files) ScreenFonts 40 Files ( 0 source code files) Pr3Fonts 36 Files ( 0 source code files) Pr6Fonts 30 Files ( 0 source code files) All packages whose name starts with "Oberon" are Oberon-only packages. A lot of space is required for supporting CJK characters (approx. 10MB in data files), another bunch for demo data as videos, pictures (approx. 10 MB). It seems that it would be a good idea to provide a "small" A2 release so that people don't get confused about the 75MB size of the CD-Image. I will report back here when such a small A2 release is available online. Best, Sven Stauber

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Re: [Oberon] Re: Replace with null-string ?! + VNC
by peasthope＠shaw.ca 16 Dec '08

16 Dec '08

Chris, > please confirm that: > * you can have a linux-Xconsole/VT running > on your vnc-server, When tightnvcserver is running there is only the CLUI on the Linux console. tightvnc uses the X server and these run in the background. > * which you can see in your NO-vnc-client, There is a picture on my Web server. You will probably see the aspect ratio squashed. http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/Cantor.html > * and you can input to the NO-vnc-client: > 'ls -l', by MR/MMing from your NOscreen. Yes, it works. Desktops.OpenDoc telnet://peter@w.x.y.z does the same much faster here ... but probably your machine is faster than mine. > * and you can see the result, which the server > sends back to the client. Certainly. > Perhaps you need to input the <CR> by keyboard ? MR+MM will send any characters including CR, LF and Tab. > Just that I didn't yet find out how to run 2 > non-root X-sessions. I'll guess that you should use XDMCP so that one server can support multiple client processes. Unfortunately the man pages don't explain. Regards, ... Peter E. -- http://members.shaw.ca/peasthope/ http://carnot.yi.org/ = http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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