April 2006 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re (2): filesystem with directories ?
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 30 Apr '06

30 Apr '06

Edgar wrote: -- snip-- > BTW, I changed to WinAOS 2.5 now with my mail stuff. > I use dexpot which gives me another desktop. So I'll have to google 'dexpot' ? > So with Alt-1/2 I can easily switch form XP to Bluebottle. That sounds fantastic ! And you can easily transfer texts between XP & Bluebottle via FatFS ? What would I need for a minimum committment test with W98, or is dexpot, XP specific ? > Concerning Linux I will wait for a Bluebottle XEN. Then I could drop XP. > Only compiling my mail extensions with PC.Compile gave problems. > After some fixes it compiled but still gives some traps deep in the system > on running. > Builder.Compile OTOH is fine. == Chris Glur.

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Re (2): [Oberon] filesystem with directories ?
by edgar＠edgarschwarz.de 29 Apr '06

29 Apr '06

"Bernhard Treutwein" <BdT(a)wildwein.de>: > Since there is support for FatFS, do you really need another > filesystem with directories? Spurious problems with FatFS or the Oberon FAT driver are a major problem that cost me many headaches with WebDAV and also a reason that it's not finished yet. So my wishlist for a new filesystem would be: - Directories and attributes to easily support WebDAV(RFC2518), DeltaV(RFC3253) - Accesscontrol with ACL(RFC????) => Support STANDARDS - Filesystem = 1{partition} - UNLIMITED filesizes by using seven bit numbers for sizes and offsets. - dynamic clustersize by using buddy clusters like in some memory management systems. > I think anybody is welcome to write an implementation > of Ext2 or Ext3 for NO/AOS/BlueBottle ... Would be nice but doesn't fulfill my wishlist :-) BTW, I changed to WinAOS 2.5 now with my mail stuff. I use dexpot which gives me another desktop. So with Alt-1/2 I can easily switch form XP to Bluebottle. Concerning Linux I will wait for a Bluebottle XEN. Then I could drop XP. Only compiling my mail extensions with PC.Compile gave problems. After some fixes it compiled but still gives some traps deep in the system on running. Builder.Compile OTOH is fine. Cheers, Edgar

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Re: filesystem with directories ?
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 29 Apr '06

29 Apr '06

> Re: Burning CD and DVD > > p.provoost(a)rn.rabobank.nl wrote: > > > ..snip... > > > > > > 4. Is there going to be a filesystem with directories (possibly a > > > journaled file system) for Bluebottle in the forseeable future ? > > > > Ulrike Glavitsch wrote: > > ...snip... > > Unfortunately, there will not be a file system with directories (and > > other features) in the near future. > > The attribute file system handed in by a master student last fall will > > have to be re-engineered in order to be used by the BB community. > > Is it UNFORTUNATE that there will not be a file system with directories ? > Is it perhaps appropriate to give the theoretical background [philosophy] > why the existing file system was chosen ? > Bernhard wrote: ] Since there is support for FatFS, do you really need another ] filesystem with directories? ] I think anybody is welcome to write an implementation ] of Ext2 or Ext3 for NO/AOS/BlueBottle ... Yes, but there are other less flippant reasons. It was a [good IMO] design decision ? Not just like top posting because it's the first thing that sticks to your fingers. Did all the design philosophy walk out the door with Wirth ? == Chris Glur.

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filesystem with directories ?
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 29 Apr '06

29 Apr '06

Re: Burning CD and DVD p.provoost(a)rn.rabobank.nl wrote: > > ..snip... > > > > 4. Is there going to be a filesystem with directories (possibly a > > journaled file system) for Bluebottle in the forseeable future ? > > Ulrike Glavitsch wrote: > ...snip... > Unfortunately, there will not be a file system with directories (and > other features) in the near future. > The attribute file system handed in by a master student last fall will > have to be re-engineered in order to be used by the BB community. Is it UNFORTUNATE that there will not be a file system with directories ? Is it perhaps appropriate to give the theoretical background [philosophy] why the existing file system was chosen ? == Chris Glur.

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Re: Anybody want to contact Negroponte and suggest he look at Oberon?
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 29 Apr '06

29 Apr '06

Douglas G. Danforth wrote: > Cadef writes "According to a story on CNet News.com, Nicholas Negroponte > says that Linux has gotten too fat, and will have to be slimmed down > before it will be practical for the $100 laptop project. From the > article: 'Suddenly it's like a very fat person [who] uses most of the > energy to move the fat. And Linux is no exception. Linux has gotten fat, > too.'" Yes each newer version of Linux is noticebly worse ! One needs to have the policy against bloat-kreep written up-front - unless you're selling hardware. Perhaps it needs legislation and a special police force. OTOH one needs to explain the theoretical basis of IF/WHY oberon claims to be more compact. Is it from the terrible, near-asm, syntax/style eg. Texts.OpenScanner(S, Oberon.Par.text, Oberon.Par.pos); Texts.Scan(S); IF S.class IN {Texts.Name, Texts.String} THEN Texts.WriteString(W, S.s); F := Files.New(S.s); Texts.Scan(S); IF (S.class = Texts.Char) & ((S.c = "@") OR (S.c = "^")) THEN... instead of the more maintainable: IF FirstArg = StartHere OR SelectedOne THEN...; even though [as I recently raised on c.l.o.] there's massive repeating of code between modules, instead of using 'libraries' ? This apparently because each student must write his OWN Ascii2Hex procedure. Jan Verhoeven wrote: > Right you are. Linux is too fat for the OLPC computer like Windows. > > There is an alternative, although it is not 'ready' yet: Oberon > How can you write Oberon is not ready YET ? How many decades old is it ? N-O is over the hill, and going down fast. > This lean operating system still fits on a single floppy disk. We have > it on sourceforge at the moment. ============= Bernhard Treutwein wrote: > finally I found a little bit time to look again into > the archives of NO. Everything what is necessary to > build the Oberon0 diskette appears to be in subdirectory > build, i.e.: > ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Alpha/Build/ > > Especially there is also (what I had not found before) > the CvsClient.Mod ... > Good, thanks. Is there any 'documentation' for CvsClient.Mod, or is it another of many potential jewels except for the 'manual' ? > I'm not shure, if the hen & egg problem (isn't that a nice > problem for easter) can be resolved with the native linux > oberon ... but in any case that does not resolve the problem > of getting used to the NO user interface, which really needs > some time to adapt to. This quote applies: "Most Web 2.0 start-ups fail when users don't find enough utility to deal with the early bugs." My circumstances when I first tried NO, were that I really needed to succeed. Later it would have been usefull, but not essential to mouse-by-left-hand. There I didn't succeed. ============== I've been following the MIT/OLPC computer; also re. the simputer, which fail[ed]/ing for non technical reasons - a long psyco/social story. That's why I've repeatedly raised the N-O for ARM question. Whereas the simputer has an excellent 'design philosophy', OLPC computer seems to make no sense: * the ability to make a useable/reliable windup power generator to drive the note-book at less cost than the rest, would be more of an acheivment that making the rest/computer. Yes, the power supply is the starting point for 3rd world rural use, but the technology is unrelated to 'computing'. * There's no need to follow the latest bloated linux. I often use mulinux: a single diskette linux [with extra addons for mc, ..etc]. With his transparent, educational layout, I never fail to be fascinated how the Italian designer simplified this package. It's like reading a Wirth text: beyond technology into 'art'. It seems that Negroponte is trying to talk to the kewl-gee-wizz-yuppies and the 3rd world NGOs at the same time. You can't do it. The cultural divide is too much. Reading his texts is like seeing the Hollywood 'reality jungle adventures' where they emerge with perfect makeup and clean white shirts after living in the jungle. I'd love to be proven wrong, since hi-tech can be very cost effective for the 3rd world as the cell-phone has proven. BTW a recent tour of Zimbabwe explained to me how N.Korea works. == Chris Glur.

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Re: Mixed OS http-fetching ?
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 28 Apr '06

28 Apr '06

Re. Subject: [Oberon] NO <--VNC--> Firefox/Linux Peter E wrote: > Routinely, I've used Firefox in Debian Linux > from NO through a VNC connection. So obviously you found this a usable method of having the superior NO interface & a full power browser at the same session, which I've been querying ? > Over the > past few months there have been instances of > the Firefox terminating abruptly with report > of a "Segmentation fault" to the VNC terminal > window. No other information reported. The > termination usually happens as an index.html > is opened. The frequency seems to be increasing > and today http://www.canada.com/ will not open. > > Odd problem. Any ideas? Jan Verhoeven wrote: > This happens occasionally with most Linux browsers. When things get too > tough or too chaotic, they terminate instantly, after having cleaned up > most of the mess they created. > > My NetScape 4.77 does it quite often when going through modern > websites. > > Mozilla sometimes does so, especially when digging through webpages > which were intended to be browsed by IE only. > They only test with IE. So if IE is not per-spec the whole industry 'walks-following into the gutter'. I did an analysis on Safari's evolution and read the various stages where IE forced then off-target. They ever had to use litigation/threat to force IE to 'fix it'. > That's modern life. Yes, especially if your prepared to just follow the herd. It's a curse: inteligent text communication which was easy just a few years ago, is replaced by eye-candy garbage, which adds no value, just increasing clutter and band width usage. Here's typical garbage motivated by these damned art-school kiddies: "You currently do not have Flash 8 installed. Please follow the directions above to install Flash 8 and access the power of goowy!" Here's a typical pageHeader [javascript apparently] 'check-which- OS/browser-is-used-so-we-can-hack-it-to-hopefully-work ! //browser detection var OS=null; var browser=null; var version=null; ... browser ="Konqueror"; OS = "Linux" browser = "Safari" ....browser = "OmniWeb" ....browser = "Opera" ..browser = "WebTV"..browser = "iCab"...browser = "Internet Explorer" ..else browser = "An unknown browser" <-- Too bad for ETH !?> OS = "Linux"...OS = "Mac" ...OS = "Windows"... etc. <><><><><><><><><> Edgar wrote: > while pondering a little bit about the task of creating a LinAos I got an idea. > Seeing that nowadays Linux distributions start to come with Xen I wonder > whether an AOS for Xen would be a solution for our problem to have Linux > tools in parallel to AOS ? Since I'm probably not the only one who never heard about Xen: 'Xen is a virtual machine monitor for x86 that supports execution of multiple guest operating systems...Xen is Open Source software.' Apparently it's much faster than VNC ? > > But no: it won't render my > > existing > > *.htm[l] !! Is this because the original N-O > > browser has > > transformed the downloaded source, for it's own use > > ? > John M. Drake wrote: > Most likely. When you "Store" a Text frame it > get's saved as a Text even if it was originally > an HTML file. If you want to save the actual > HTML you can by first doing the command: > > HTML.ShowHTML * Thanks HTMLDocs.ShowHTML * does it. The reason why these basic/essential commands get lost from memory if not regularly used is because of the garbage/clutter pushed 'in your face' by the art school kiddies. What happened to the 'any browser movement' ? == Chris Glur.

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N-O 'show global varaibles' command ?
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 28 Apr '06

28 Apr '06

I seem to remember that there's a M.P to show the global variables of a module, but substantial effort failed to find it. Please help. ----------- Obviously by positioning textFiles to known positions, where they can be latter processed allows powerfull batch processing scripts -- since text frame are not identified by name, but displayPosition. I don't-want-to/shouldn't-have-to analyse the source. Clearly what is needed is: <positionMarkerTo X,Ycoordinates> which is acheived by 'Configuration.Marker set X Y at absolute pixel position X, Y' [where X,Y also depend on the display resolution]. 'Configuration.Marker save user save marker in user track' would apparently save the coordinated of the marker which is in the user track ? * I always thought there was only ONE marker available, independant of system or user track ? * <digression> some things which need to be said are omitted because of taboo: in english 'the bird flew OVER the wire' is very different from 'ON TO the wire'. A previous attempt at testing an N-O graphics package failed for me, because the 'cursor had to be moved OVER the line' ! The solution to these socio/non-technical problem, is to accept that you-can't-get-it-right-the-first-time, accept the need for successive refinement. <end digression> Here again I'm guessing that 'save marker in user track' means 'save user track marker' and not 'save marker into user track'. So then the UserTrackMarker's [there's only one marker ?] coordinates are saved - as global/s, available for later commands. So now if I first reposition/clear THE [only] marker, I can then restore it later to the saved position, by apparently 'Configuration.Marker set save set at saved position' But NO !! Why ? == Chris Glur.

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LinAos -> XenAos
by edgar＠edgarschwarz.de 21 Apr '06

21 Apr '06

Hi, while pondering a little bit about the task of creating a LinAos I got an idea. Seeing that nowadays Linux distributions start to come with Xen I wonder whether an AOS for Xen would be a solution for our problem to have Linux tools in parallel to AOS ? This could also run on this famous 100$ notebook then. And porting AOS to Xen could be of more academic interest than a Linux port. ETH, what do you think ? Cheers, Edgar

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NO <--VNC--> Firefox/Linux
by shark＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 20 Apr '06

20 Apr '06

Routinely, I've used Firefox in Debian Linux from NO through a VNC connection. Over the past few months there have been instances of the Firefox terminating abruptly with report of a "Segmentation fault" to the VNC terminal window. No other information reported. The termination usually happens as an index.html is opened. The frequency seems to be increasing and today http://www.canada.com/ will not open. Odd problem. Any ideas? Thanks, ... Peter E. Desktops.OpenDoc http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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RE: [Oberon] Building Oberon0.dsk
by Treutwein Bernhard 19 Apr '06

19 Apr '06

Hello everybody, finally I found a little bit time to look again into the archives of NO. Everything what is necessary to build the Oberon0 diskette appears to be in subdirectory build, i.e.: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Alpha/Build/ Especially there is also (what I had not found before) the CvsClient.Mod ... I'm not shure, if the hen & egg problem (isn't that a nice problem for easter) can be resolved with the native linux oberon ... but in any case that does not resolve the problem of getting used to the NO user interface, which really needs some time to adapt to. Regards -- Bernhard Treutwein, IuK, Ref. III A 3 Bernhard Treutwein (at] verwaltung uni-muenchen de BdT (at] wildwein de

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