August 2002 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #58 - 9 msgs
by Charles Angelich 28 Aug '02

28 Aug '02

>Message: 1 >From: Frank van Riet <Fvanriet(a)spescom.com> >To: "'oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch'" <oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch> >Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:58:19 +0200 >Subject: [Oberon] RE: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #57 - 10 msgs >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > >Hi all > >I', really happy that I sparked some productive discussion which does not >revolve around >mice and fonts :) ! Yes, of the 100 discussions of shortint and longint I would say this one is going to be the most productive. As no one is going to redesign the Oberon language and no one is going to fix the user interface I'd say we're running about even. ;-) Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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Where we go tomorrow?
by Yuri M. Skripkah 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

Hello! Dear developers of n-o! I think, for beginners will interesting You opinion about direction where system and language will go. Sure, every can read projects on site, but for me, more valuable live opinion. Thanks. -- Yuri mailto:yurix@i.com.ua

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Re: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #57 - 10 msgs
by Charles Angelich 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

>Message: 10 >Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:01:10 +0300 >From: "Yuri M. Skripkah" <yurix(a)i.com.ua> >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch >Subject: [Oberon] screen scrolling and some idle talk >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >Helo, All. > >Anybody know how to make horizontal and vertical scrolling >for whole desktop(framebuffer)(for all TUI GUI Desktops) in n-o, >as it is in X Window or some NT(tm) videodrivers? This may be useful >for users with old monitors without affecting spirit of big screen. Keeping menubars onscreen at 640x480 is the primary issue. Word wrap within the display is secondary but also something computer users would expect. Menu bars and text that run off-screen on the right is not normal and not something than cannot be fixed. The alternative is to admit defeat and no longer offer a 640x480 driver option during the install. >(* And in addition: >Sorry, but mailing list content divided into two stream: >a) ask about some definite topic and b) idle talk about marketing >issues. >IMHO for attracting new users ( if this goal is at all ) >is more better publish all documentation in one tree in Oberon site >as html (most of potentially users have web-browser :)),than extend >support for various mouses. >Now part of documentation is on paper in books, part hidden in articles, part >in ps files. It is in dependence with copyright, of course, but may be >one source is possible? >And other problem with documentation including in installation is it intermediate level. >It is not for full dummies, but not contain a lot of algorithmic >grounds (source not give all grounds and not quite readable even by >Oberon language ), especially in kernel. If the documentation was intended to be used by the majority of computer users it would have to be re-organized into novice, intermediate, and advanced rather than combined into one document. Not having 00INDEX.TXT files on the FTP server doesn't help when Oberon is something new and downloading needed files is not obvious. >This make some difficulties for non-purposeful or busy user :( ,but: >I think developers in ETH have not enough lifetime to >support this users: it is their lifetime.*) I've offered to help, the response was "Thanks but no". Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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Re: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #57 - 10 msgs
by Charles Angelich 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

>Message: 10 >Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:01:10 +0300 >From: "Yuri M. Skripkah" <yurix(a)i.com.ua> >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch >Subject: [Oberon] screen scrolling and some idle talk >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >Helo, All. > >Anybody know how to make horizontal and vertical scrolling >for whole desktop(framebuffer)(for all TUI GUI Desktops) in n-o, >as it is in X Window or some NT(tm) videodrivers? This may be useful >for users with old monitors without affecting spirit of big screen. Keeping menubars onscreen at 640x480 is the primary issue. Word wrap within the display is secondary but also something computer users would expect. Menu bars and text that run off-screen on the right is not normal and not something than cannot be fixed. The alternative is to admit defeat and no longer offer a 640x480 driver option during the install. >(* And in addition: >Sorry, but mailing list content divided into two stream: >a) ask about some definite topic and b) idle talk about marketing >issues. >IMHO for attracting new users ( if this goal is at all ) >is more better publish all documentation in one tree in Oberon site >as html (most of potentially users have web-browser :)),than extend >support for various mouses. >Now part of documentation is on paper in books, part hidden in articles, part >in ps files. It is in dependence with copyright, of course, but may be >one source is possible? >And other problem with documentation including in installation is it intermediate level. >It is not for full dummies, but not contain a lot of algorithmic >grounds (source not give all grounds and not quite readable even by >Oberon language ), especially in kernel. If the documentation was intended to be used by the majority of computer users it would have to be re-organized into novice, intermediate, and advanced rather than combined into one document. Not having 00INDEX.TXT files on the FTP server doesn't help when Oberon is something new and downloading needed files is not obvious. >This make some difficulties for non-purposeful or busy user :( ,but: >I think developers in ETH have not enough lifetime to >support this users: it is their lifetime.*) I've offered to help, the response was "Thanks but no". Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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RE: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #55 (language issues)
by Frank van Riet 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

Hi Patrik, Paul, Greg Thanks very much for your comments. I accept your arguments on defines & pre-processing. I suspect it is a matter of taste. I do however believe that the defines offer a more fine-grained solution than splitting the source tree. But again point taken. Greg I'll have a look at the Linz implementation, but you'll appreciate my need to stick with more "mainstream" implementations. I have a fair amount of experience in compilers and languages. I am well aware that integer type interoperability conjures up images of hell fit to be included in something by Dante :) If you have a look at my original submission you'll note that I did raise this issue, as well as a simple solution. Simply don't allow interoperability between signed and unsigned variables. This makes the impact on the compiler negligable. This has the additional benefit of forcing to programmer to think about the range of the variables. I agree with a little effort it is easy to program only with signed types. What I neglected to mention is that I indeed do a lot of system progranmming. So each time I have to invest that effort adds up into a considerable annoyance and extra code. Patrik I have to disagree with your point on values versus flags. A stack pointer (for instance) is an unsigned value the size of a machine word -period. Also from my (yes I agree somwhat biased) perspective Java is not a good language to compare Oberon to in the case of systems level code. Would anyone who'd like to write a runtime system in Jave please raise their hands :) But still the point that you raised (Patrik) is more of an implementational issue on the compiler side. The other integer types are still visible to programmer, otherwise were heading back to B (or is that BCPL?) ? Please correct if I'm wrong. As far as the garbage collection and interoperability with other languages is concerned, I understand and accept the need for the tags. Its just their placement that bothers me. Again I'm doing system programming, where we really don't use GC, so if I want to pass a pointer to an array to a C rountine (say) I don't want the GC specific stuff to get in the way. I appreciate all of the intricacies with calling conventions, but in many cases you simply need to pass a pointer to a buffer. Again there are way around this as I stated originally I am more interested in the decisions behind the choices and other people's view than I am in the result. Besides this is much less of an issue of aggravation(?) to me than the unsigned types. To conclude. Let me be clear about this. I work in Oberon every day, and I enjoy it. That does not mean that one should not think about what goes on behind the scenes, and what the reasons are (or agree with all of the choices). If anything this will only make us better programmers. Frank --------------------------------------- Frank van Riet (Software Developer) Datavoice (Pty) Ltd Snail mail PO Box 582 Stellenbosch 7599 South Africa Tel +27 21 888-2118 Mobile +27 82 970 5704 Web http://www.datavoice.co.za ---------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: oberon-request(a)inf.ethz.ch [mailto:oberon-request@inf.ethz.ch] > Sent: 25 August 2002 12:00 > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > Subject: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #55 - 7 msgs > > > Send Oberon mailing list submissions to > oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > oberon-request(a)inf.ethz.ch > > You can reach the person managing the list at > oberon-admin(a)inf.ethz.ch > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Oberon digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. How to discourage new Oberon users (Charles Angelich) > 2. American humor (Charles Angelich) > 3. documentation, installation instructions (Charles Angelich) > 4. the threat that Oberon could improve? (Charles Angelich) > 5. How to discourage new Oberon users (Charles Angelich) > 6. Taking responsibility (Douglas G. Danforth) > 7. Re: (no subject) (Greg Haynes) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 07:43:58 > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > From: Charles Angelich <cangelich(a)famvid.com> > Subject: [Oberon] How to discourage new Oberon users > Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:15:32 +0100 > >From: Paul Reed <paulreed(a)paddedcell.com> > >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >Subject: [Oberon] Narrow Displays and Oberon Language > >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > > >> From: GitM > >> > The OS is not ONLY about exercising the hardware. It is > also about > >> > communication with the USER. > > > >> From: "Thomas Frey" <frey(a)inf.ethz.ch> > >> Therefore the original Ceres workstation had a 1024x800 display > >> resolution > > > >Thomas, I totally agree with you. As I've said, I > >have a Ceres 3 on my desk and its monitor is a modified > >Moniterm VCX1000 manufactured in Minnetonka, MN, in the > >US of A way back in March 1990. > > I'm trying to start at the FOUNDATIONS that ETH Obern > established with the release of Native/Beta. I am not > trying to impress you or any other person on this elist > > What you haven't noticed is that I do have an installed > Native/Beta on another machine with the 1024x768 display. > > I have 5 computers with Oberon installed on two of them. > I have ETH Oberon Native/Beta, ETH W31 Oberon 3, Linz > Oberon V4 all installed here in front of me. > > I also have access to an 800mhz with a 19" screen and > I've never even bothered to find out what it's maximum > display capabilities are as yet. > > Now tell me one more time about your wonderful monitor. > > >My guess is that the > >monitors cost ETH more than each Ceres, anyone from > >ETH in that era care to comment? :) > > Ask me if anyone really cares about Ceres hardware? > > >The point is, it's a 21" screen, and Oberon's beautifully > >crisp and clear at 1024x768 (viewable area 17"). > > No, it's not "crisp and clear". It's useable like most > any other GUI interface would be. It could be better > if anyone really cared at all in any way to make it > better. > > >The first time I got the same experience with other > >hardware that I could afford was last year, when I bought > >a Sony VAIO with a really nice 1024x768 TFT display (tape > >measure again: 14" viewable area). > > Notice the word "afford"? Do you not care what others > can afford? Are you an elist bourgeoise who thinks the > peasants should fend for themselves? > > Are college students wealthy now and can buy anything > dictated to them by the software required by the courses > they chose to enroll in? > > Microsoft thinks this way and everyone hates them for it. > > >I think this demonstrates how far Wirth and Gutknecht > >were ahead of their time, and so it is understandable > >that they didn't feel the need to pander to the conventions > >being tentatively established on how GUIs should work - > >it was far from a foregone conclusion! > > > >As has widely been observed, departing the "bandwagon > >trail" allowed them to simplify greatly the way the > >whole system worked. For some people, it's too simple > >(like not having columns, or overloading the mouse > >instead of having to remember keyboard shortcuts). > > You are attempting to evangelize two men who built a > system for their personal use. Anyone building a > single user system would customize it to their own > personal habits. This wasn't a crusade it was just > how people are. Human nature. > > >But although I have made great efforts to adapt > >Oberon to legacy hardware (e.g. narrower displays), I > >view these adaptations as "specialist applications" > >and I wouldn't expect the maintainers of ETH Oberon to > >be particularly worried about them (I hope you're > >reading this Pieter :]). > > Yes, as long as it works on YOUR hardware it should > remain as it is. A great philosophy if you want there > to be only a few dozen Oberon users. > > >I sympathise with people's desires to make Oberon > >run on diverse hardware (because I do it myself) but > >it is impossible to do this without cutting at the > >very heart of the design principles which make > >Oberon great. > > An inability to do columns with the default font is not > "great" it is absurd. Lack of word-wrap is not "great" > it is an oversight. Menu bars that disappear offscreen > look like a hack-job. > > >It strikes me that taking a system like Native Oberon > >and trying to make it usable on 640x480 is like trying > >to make a motorbike by sawing a car in half. > > It srikes me as elitism and arrogance to say that. > > > > Charles Angelich > > The Ghost in the Machine! > > DOS and W31 Tech website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost > > Stories, poems, music, and photos website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:06:12 > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > From: Charles Angelich <cangelich(a)famvid.com> > Subject: [Oberon] American humor > Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > >Message: 3 > >Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:00:28 +0200 > >From: Josef Sedlacek <sedlacek(a)swissonline.ch> > >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >Subject: Re: [Oberon] Narrow Displays and Oberon Language > >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > > >Dear Paul > > > >Excellent. This combination of good argumentation with the > dry english humor. > > > >Thank you very much for motorbike and swimming. I had to > laugh as much as > I did > >not for a long time. > > I have some American humor for you to laugh at. > > Will you be laughing when there are only two or three Oberon users > remaining because new users were told to buy hardware they could not > afford or go elsewhere? > > > > Charles Angelich > > The Ghost in the Machine! > > DOS and W31 Tech website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost > > Stories, poems, music, and photos website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:07:02 > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > From: Charles Angelich <cangelich(a)famvid.com> > Subject: [Oberon] documentation, installation instructions > Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > >Message: 6 > >Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:26:57 -0400 > >From: "Douglas G. Danforth" <danforth(a)greenwoodfarm.com> > >Organization: Greenwood Farm Technologies LLC > >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >Subject: [Oberon] Bluebottle documentation > >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > > >Andre, Patrik, Pieter, Folks, > > > >Issue: Bluebottle documentation and the "background of obviousness". > > > >I look at the process of moving now to installing Bluebottle and > >blanch (turn white). Why? Many of the terms are unfamiliar to > >me. I would not expect this (some but not so much) after nearly > >40 years of programming. > > Welcome to the pit of despair. :-) > > >In hopes of improving the Bluebottle installation process I will > >go through the online documentation with annotated > >comments which are meant to be helpful and suggestive of change. > > > >The phrase "What is not said is purposefully left unsaid" > (paraphrase of > >Dr. Wirth) is fine, but only up to a point. For introduction to > >new areas verboseness is better than tersness. However, it takes > >a great deal of work to make writing simple and concise. It is easy > >just to through in the kitchen sink. > > > >Let's start with "http://bluebottle.ethz.ch/index.html" > >o "SMP-compatible" I deduce from context but is undefined. > >The rest of the page is fairly clear. > > > >Jump to "http://bluebottle.ethz.ch/instreq.html" (Requirements) > >I have a great deal of difficulty with this page, not so much in > >the specifics but "what is left unsaid". Namely, where is the > >overview saying "you need a great deal of hardware knowledge > >to install Bluebottle". Where is the statement that you can > >severly damage or destroy your current system if you are not > >very careful? > > Idenitical to the situation for Native/Oberon where the options > to trash your existing system are at the top and only if you > take the time to read to the bottom do you find you can install > into one large FAT file and avoid the risks. :-\ > > >I believe that Bluebottle attracts users to the website first and > >that Native Oberon is a secondary interest to the newcomer so that > >assuming they know about Native is not a good idea. > > There are assumptions that users know how to use DOS and THAT is > not always true anymore. Obviously they used SOMETHING to download > Oberon to their hardware. What that something IS is a mystery > apparently? Within the documenation a user is told that they can > use Oberon's FTP to download ARC files before they even get to the > point of configuring Oberon to be able to connect to their ISP. > > >"Partition" needs to be extensively defined with examples given > >so that the user knows what they are getting into. > > Good luck on this one. ;-) > > >"If you have a boot manager, logical drives in extended > partions may also > >work (e.g., with LILO, BootMagic, NT BootLoader)" > > > >What's a "logical drive"? What's an "extended partition". What is > >a boot manager? Why is it that the "may" work? > > Good point. Another interesting assumption that they "mystery OS" > used to download Oberon has all of these capabilities. > > >"LILO" needs to have Linux associated with it. > >"BootMagic" needs to be removed and replaced with "PartitionMagic" > >since BootMagic is no longer supported. > > Probably should be rewritten to use LOADLIN.EXE? > > >"The latest version of the ZipTool is also required to unpack the zip > files. " > >But now that I have a Native partition that has no access to > the internet > >how do I get "any" file from the web into the Native file space? > >Copy to floppy and then execute ...??... what command from Native? > > Until a recent "fix" I suspect the ZipTool might not have > actually worked > anyhow? > > >"Disk space: In addition to an existing Native Oberon > installation, one > free partition of about 100MB for Bluebottle. If you > >want to boot Bluebottle, the partition has to be a primary > partition on > the first 8GB of the hard disk." > > > >When I did Partitions.Show I was shown what partions already > existed on > >my drives. Nowhere in the installation process was I given > the option > >of "repartioning" my drives. If this is possible in one of the steps > >then *here* in the Bluebottle documentation it should say > "If you don't > >have a boot manager then from within the Native installation you can > >repartion at step ... of the installation process" > > These are SOME of the reasons I have argued in favor of a > plain text file > of installation instructions with system requirements, system setup > requirements, > and possibly the names of available software to get for > arranging to do all of > this? Obviously all but the Linux versions of Oberon rely on > a working > knowledge of DOS and it's utility applications but no one > likes to admit > to relying on lowly old DOS even though the need is obvious. > > > > >More later. > > I will be looking forward to observing your progress. I wish you > all the luck in the world - you will need it. ;-) > > > > Charles Angelich > > The Ghost in the Machine! > > DOS and W31 Tech website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost > > Stories, poems, music, and photos website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:42:27 > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > From: Charles Angelich <cangelich(a)famvid.com> > Subject: [Oberon] the threat that Oberon could improve? > Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > >Message: 7 > >From: cglur(a)onwe.co.za > >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >Cc: cglur(a)onwe.co.za > >Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 07:14:57 +0200 (SAST) > >Subject: [Oberon] Displays and fonts and RX > >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > > > > >> >Since 07.02.01, System.Directory on Native Oberon supports > >> >additional flags. This is currently only documented in > >> >http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/WebAlpha.html, excerpt below: > > > >OK. System.Directory *.Tool\fd ~ gives what Charles want { use F1 }; > >except IMPORTANTLY it should be date ordered. Reversed is best. > >So, further refinements for the next version ? > > No, actually this does NOT do "what Charles wants" and it was YOU who > said you had a need for a listing you could sort by date. How did > this become MY need? > > I've repeatedly reminded everyone here that the Native/Alpha was never > finished and will NOT install into one large FAT file? Does no one > read anymore or is long term memory at a premium? > > The default file format was changed, the commands to use this file > format were renamed, it was never intended that a person like > myself could finish this and use it. In fact, as I remember this > you cannot even type into that user track and I have no idea why? > > >Charles Angelich wrote: > >> Not including documentation within Oberon installs seems to be > >> a reocurring theme. > > > >Well yes, that's life. It's inevitable for documentation to lag with > >non-commercial products. Pity. > > Lag? Yes, I would say close to two years without > documentation is a bit > of a LAG! > > You sarcasm is noted also. You need to re-adjust your > persona a notch. > > >> I also added a dot within the ZERO char to assist in reading > >> Oberon source code when the capital "O" is being used along with > >> the "0" (zero) char. Not pretty really but easier on the eyes IMO. > > > >Then you're aware of the many existing fonts, and that you can choose > >the size and boldness you want. Also easily design your own > chars. with > >Desktops.OpenDoc FontEditor.Panel ~ > > I see three fonts useable for English language text? This is what you > call MANY? I know people with 700 fonts installed on their machines. > > >Since you're interested in 'appearance' perhaps you can be our > >resident artist ? > > You made a request for a sortable, by date, directory display then you > ridicule what I have to say about it and now you think I'm your > "boy"? Think again. > > >Did you look at: FontEditor.Panel -> Shanghai.Scn.Fnt > >eg. chars 20Hex, "3", "4" ? Amazing stuff. > >Is your alpha 2001 FontEditor.Panel also 'eratic' when 'keying' ? > >A 'senior' n-o user on c.l.o. tells me that my problems are > imaginary. > > I don't have Alpha installed here because it will not > install. Write this > down because by tomorrow you will have no memory of this text > whatsoever. > > Yes, I noticed the bugs in the font editor. It also reverts back to > previous filenames if you "grow" a font display over the top of it > then "close" the font display. Cute bug since you then save the font > overwriting a different font and eventually lose all your other fonts. > Neat huh? > > >> btw: What happened to the Syntax#.Scn.Fnt I find in W31. I like > >> that font! > > > >I don't know/use W31-oberon, but # is not a valid char for a > filename. > > The Syntax#.Scn.Fnt is mentioned as the "fall-back" when the > requested font > is not found re:Oberon documentation. You apparently don't > RTFM a great deal > either. > > The "#" is a place-holder representing a number. All font > names also have > a number remember? > > >> If using a proportional font as the default for Native Oberon is > >> the crutch to justify the inability to do clean standard displays > >> then I would submit that a default proportional font was a mistake. > > > >I (and apparently others) like the feel of Oberon10.Scn.Fnt . > >When I get a table or an ascii-art-schematic which needs fixed-width > >font, I just 'wipe-it' and 'dab' my Courier8.Scn.Fnt text-bit which > >is on my personalTool/pallette. > > You, and apparently others, don't do a great deal with numbers and > therefore have no need of columnar displays. Odd because the favorite > contributed app seems to always be some form of number cruncher. I > guess when you're doing cute graphs and charts you don't care about > displaying the data for verificiation of accuracy? > > >Not easy for 2-button/dumbed-down use. > > The only "dumb" here is that people think they're elite with a 3 > button mouse. The cost is $7 US new here in Michigan. Get over it. > > >Paul Reed wrote: > >> It strikes me that taking a system like Native Oberon > >> and trying to make it usable on 640x480 is like trying > >> to make a motorbike by sawing a car in half. > > > >I wonder why I never felt the pain and deprivation ? > > You have nothing to use Oberon for other than a screen saver? > > >When I first intalled V2.3.2 I just selected the default > (VGA) and was > >completely satisfied. Same for V 2.3.6. And when I > installed Linux based, > >the virtual screen was bigger than the physical, so it > slides around when > >the cursor hits the edge - most annoying. I'm guessing > X-setup would fix > >that, but life is too short. I found the extra area of the > linux version > >usefull for cramped jobs, like font editing with FontEditor.Panel . > > Yes, Oberon does have nice screen savers if you like the > old-style graphics. > > >When I started using alpha 2001, I couldn't understand how they would > >design the Desktops.OpenDoc's store button to be inaccesable > unless Grown > >to full screen size ( which crashes .html fetched texts -- > which nobody > >would admit for 1 year !!). > > Now you understand this? > > >I strongly beleive in 'information hiding', and considered > experimenting > >with different VDU settings as opening a can of worms, until Charle's > >complaints drew my attention to the possibility. > > "Information hiding" is like calling rust "iron oxide". Rust is rust > and mistakes are mistakes by any name you can think of. > > >The fact that the default Oberon10.Scn.Fnt gives you about > 79 chars in > >the UserTrack with 640x480, also suggests it's OK. What am > I missing ? > > You are missing the shared experience of having 100's or even > 1000's of > Oberon users writing the code, fixing what needs to be fixed, and > sharing their experiences with you. > > Given the option to have these experiences you would rather > be sarcastic > and fight to maintain the status quo which is totally contrary to all > the folklore about Wirth and what he tried to do during his career. > Wirth, as described, would not smile at what you are fighting > for here. > > > > Charles Angelich > > The Ghost in the Machine! > > DOS and W31 Tech website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost > > Stories, poems, music, and photos website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 07:43:58 > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > From: Charles Angelich <cangelich(a)famvid.com> > Subject: [Oberon] How to discourage new Oberon users > Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:15:32 +0100 > >From: Paul Reed <paulreed(a)paddedcell.com> > >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >Subject: [Oberon] Narrow Displays and Oberon Language > >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > > >> From: GitM > >> > The OS is not ONLY about exercising the hardware. It is > also about > >> > communication with the USER. > > > >> From: "Thomas Frey" <frey(a)inf.ethz.ch> > >> Therefore the original Ceres workstation had a 1024x800 display > >> resolution > > > >Thomas, I totally agree with you. As I've said, I > >have a Ceres 3 on my desk and its monitor is a modified > >Moniterm VCX1000 manufactured in Minnetonka, MN, in the > >US of A way back in March 1990. > > I'm trying to start at the FOUNDATIONS that ETH Obern > established with the release of Native/Beta. I am not > trying to impress you or any other person on this elist > > What you haven't noticed is that I do have an installed > Native/Beta on another machine with the 1024x768 display. > > I have 5 computers with Oberon installed on two of them. > I have ETH Oberon Native/Beta, ETH W31 Oberon 3, Linz > Oberon V4 all installed here in front of me. > > I also have access to an 800mhz with a 19" screen and > I've never even bothered to find out what it's maximum > display capabilities are as yet. > > Now tell me one more time about your wonderful monitor. > > >My guess is that the > >monitors cost ETH more than each Ceres, anyone from > >ETH in that era care to comment? :) > > Ask me if anyone really cares about Ceres hardware? > > >The point is, it's a 21" screen, and Oberon's beautifully > >crisp and clear at 1024x768 (viewable area 17"). > > No, it's not "crisp and clear". It's useable like most > any other GUI interface would be. It could be better > if anyone really cared at all in any way to make it > better. > > >The first time I got the same experience with other > >hardware that I could afford was last year, when I bought > >a Sony VAIO with a really nice 1024x768 TFT display (tape > >measure again: 14" viewable area). > > Notice the word "afford"? Do you not care what others > can afford? Are you an elist bourgeoise who thinks the > peasants should fend for themselves? > > Are college students wealthy now and can buy anything > dictated to them by the software required by the courses > they chose to enroll in? > > Microsoft thinks this way and everyone hates them for it. > > >I think this demonstrates how far Wirth and Gutknecht > >were ahead of their time, and so it is understandable > >that they didn't feel the need to pander to the conventions > >being tentatively established on how GUIs should work - > >it was far from a foregone conclusion! > > > >As has widely been observed, departing the "bandwagon > >trail" allowed them to simplify greatly the way the > >whole system worked. For some people, it's too simple > >(like not having columns, or overloading the mouse > >instead of having to remember keyboard shortcuts). > > You are attempting to evangelize two men who built a > system for their personal use. Anyone building a > single user system would customize it to their own > personal habits. This wasn't a crusade it was just > how people are. Human nature. > > >But although I have made great efforts to adapt > >Oberon to legacy hardware (e.g. narrower displays), I > >view these adaptations as "specialist applications" > >and I wouldn't expect the maintainers of ETH Oberon to > >be particularly worried about them (I hope you're > >reading this Pieter :]). > > Yes, as long as it works on YOUR hardware it should > remain as it is. A great philosophy if you want there > to be only a few dozen Oberon users. > > >I sympathise with people's desires to make Oberon > >run on diverse hardware (because I do it myself) but > >it is impossible to do this without cutting at the > >very heart of the design principles which make > >Oberon great. > > An inability to do columns with the default font is not > "great" it is absurd. Lack of word-wrap is not "great" > it is an oversight. Menu bars that disappear offscreen > look like a hack-job. > > >It strikes me that taking a system like Native Oberon > >and trying to make it usable on 640x480 is like trying > >to make a motorbike by sawing a car in half. > > It srikes me as elitism and arrogance to say that. > > > > Charles Angelich > > The Ghost in the Machine! > > DOS and W31 Tech website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost > > Stories, poems, music, and photos website: > http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:00:01 -0400 > From: "Douglas G. Danforth" <danforth(a)greenwoodfarm.com> > Organization: Greenwood Farm Technologies LLC > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > Subject: [Oberon] Taking responsibility > Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > I have decided not to continue my online comments about the Bluebottle > documentation since this is an irresponsible approach. > > I prefer instead to actively engage in improving Bluebottle by doing > work, by taking responsibility for Bluebottle. > > That's how change and improvement happen. > > Agreement is the other element that must be active in this process. > > -Doug > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:58:41 -0600 > From: Greg Haynes <haynes(a)pcisys.net> > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > Subject: Re: [Oberon] (no subject) > Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > > Frank van Riet wrote: > > > > 2) In developing large systems for different platforms, conditional > > definintions are a real life saver. > > (e.g. (Borland?) Pascal's $IFDEF) I'm not sure if > this is a language > > or an implementational issue, although I suspect it is > the former. Apart > > from having code for differing platforms. Conditionals will > > get rid of the clutter of debugging code > > > > CONST > > debug = TRUE; > > ;;; > > IF debug THEN .... > > > > which is painfully inefficient. > > For maintaining multiple versions of modules that have small > variations, > the version elements in Linz Oberon V4 are excellent! They don't > require the extraneous logic of conditional definitions, and > in fact you > only see one version of the code at a time. I highly recommend V4 for > anyone looking for a productive and reliable software development > environment with an easily customizable user interface. It runs on > numerous platforms and applications are portable among them. Even > though it is not really supported anymore, it has a lot of excellent > capabilities that you won't see in other systems and it retains much > of the simplicity of the original Oberon. > > -Greg Haynes > > > --__--__-- > > -- > Oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems > http://www.lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon > > > End of Oberon Digest >

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re:numbers
by Yuri M. Skripkah 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

Hi! What is happen if we will have only +-128 (or 256) bit INTEGER? This is very simply and give possibility to work without float at all (but gobble memory)? Various types of numbers is not a freak, but give more control... -- Yuri mailto:yurix@i.com.ua

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Re (2): Bluebottle OS available
by muller＠inf.ethz.ch 26 Aug '02

26 Aug '02

On 12 Jun 2002, Stefan Salewski <Salewski(a)PHYSnet.Uni-Hamburg.de> wrote: > Which file have I to edit to change network settings > like IP-Address? There is http://bluebottle.ethz.ch/Current/Aos.Par > but I cant find a file Aos.Par on the Bluebottle partition. (I thought someone else would answer this earlier...) The IP settings are configured at boot time, so it depends how you are booting the system. If you are booting via DOS noboot.exe, you have a DOS-based ASCII config file aos.par that contains the parameters. If you are booting directly from the partition, the settings are in the partition itself. To edit them: 1. OFSTools.Watch (to see your boot partition, the one called AOS) 2. Partitions.GetConfig ^ (select the partition name, e.g. IDE2#5) This produces a text containing the current settings. Edit them and execute the Partitions.SetConfig command at the top of the text to store them. The most important TCP/IP settings are LinkDevice, LocalIP, LocalName, Netmask, Gateway, Domain, DNS0. They are documented in the Aos.Par file, which is also available on the default file system. > How can I stop the moving skeleton or the moving bunny? I think the button for this was left out of the menu by accident. To stop all animations ("bunnies"), in AosTools.Tool, execute Aos.Call Bunny.Free ~ You can also type the Bunny.Free command in the command launcher. -- Pieter -- Pieter Muller, Computer Systems Institute, ETH Zurich / MCT Lab, Zurich Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/

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Re: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #56 - 3 msgs
by Charles Angelich 26 Aug '02

26 Aug '02

>Message: 2 >From: muller(a)inf.ethz.ch >Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:04:31 +0200 >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch >Cc: muller(a)inf.ethz.ch >Subject: Re: [Oberon] Re: New Oberon users bootstrap improvement project >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >Stefan Salewski <Salewski(a)physnet.uni-hamburg.de> wrote: >> I think that there is enough documentation and information >> to install ETH-Native-Oberon or BlueBottle-Oberon and start using it. > >I also think so, but perhaps its organization could be improved >to "steer" complete newbies better. Of course, many people (myself >included) read as little documentation as possible. > >> At each new installation my biggest problem is again and again the >> danger of destroying the integrity of the other two >> operating-systems, which resides on my computer, and which I need for >> my daily work. > >Unfortunately there is no way to guarantee that one operating system >won't corrupt the data of another operating system except by physically >separating and removing the storage devices. [...] One way would be to NOT present the most potentially harmful options at the TOP of the list of installs within the user track of Oberon0.dsk. Installation to a FAT file is the _last_ option listed. >Also, it is not inherently safer to install Native Oberon to a FAT >partition instead of repartitioning the disk. It is only more >convenient. New people are stressed enough about the possibility of damaging what they already have that is working (see the comment above on this). Convenience is a good thing. >In fact, the FAT solution is more complicated and therefore more likely >to contain errors. Could you elaborate/expand on this a bit? >> But this is only true for people who are willig to invest some time >> and effords. If we want to increase the number of Oberon-Users >> outside of ETH, than more good documentsation, accessible without a >> running Oberon-System, is necessary. Many people prefer to print out >> complete installation instructions before starting installation. > >That was the aim with André Fischer's text: > http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/installA.txt >(it will be updated for the new release). No link to this text file jumps at you when you are at the ETH webpages. >For users who can easily find their way around a new system, there >is the "documentation path" I described in an earlier mail. > >As an aside: I believe one should try to use the Oberon system >itself as much as possible from the beginning. That is the idea >behind the Oberon-0 system used for installation. Of course this >is more complicated than the "Dummies" approach of a graphical >Windows-based installation program run from CD, but it is also >more flexible, e.g. it is possible to install a usable Oberon >programming environment on old hardware using a single installation >diskette. Both approaches have their advantages. Installing an OS using a user interface you are not familiar with is asking a great deal. >Bluebottle also uses the "Oberon-0 approach" for installation, with >the important difference that the boot diskette is replaced by a boot >CD, which contains the complete system. Therefore it can either be >used as-is (without installation), or it can be used to install itself >on a hard disk. >-- Pieter BlueBottle avoiding the need to repartition and possibly wipe your hard drive in the process is not really asking a new user to make the same decisions before even getting to try out the OS. BlueBottle on a CD is a walk in the park compared to repartioning a hard drive prior to installation. Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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Re: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #56 - 3 msgs
by Charles Angelich 26 Aug '02

26 Aug '02

>Message: 1 >From: muller(a)inf.ethz.ch >Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:07:31 +0200 >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch >Cc: muller(a)inf.ethz.ch >Subject: [Oberon] Native Oberon alpha updated >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >An updated Native Oberon alpha version is now available at: > ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Alpha/ > >The detailed changes are listed at: > http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/WebAlpha.html > >All changes up to 24.08.02 are in the downloadable version. >Notably, the Oberon-0 installation diskette now supports >FAT-based installation again, using the completely rewritten >FAT file system (from the Dummies release) of Bernhard Egger. Thank you. >Important things remaining to do for the planned beta release: >o apply remaining updates (NetSystem, Mail, etc.) Where would I find these "update" modules on the ETH server? >o improve installation workflow and documentation >o bring on-line installation documentation in line with new concepts > http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/installA.txt I scanned this text briefly. Even though it mentioned that it would attempt to go directly into the installation procedures and leave the "exceptions" for the end of the text, this is not what I found. I continue to believe that the DOS FAT file install is the least invasive install for new users who have not even SEEN Oberon before and are, therefore, unable to make an informed decision to chose which install they would prefer. Few will dedicate an entire partition inaccessible to their other installed OS without having even seen the OS in question on screen? Creating a multi-OS system and repartioning without damaging existing installs of other OS has become one of the more common causes of users who have trashed their entire hard drive and must reformat and re-install _everything_. >o improve release build tools to make it easier for others to use > >Afterwards we'll start a round of testing and error documentation >and correction, aiming for a release by the end of the year. > >-- Pieter Am downloading the Alpha files now. :-) Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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Re: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #56 - 3 msgs
by Charles Angelich 26 Aug '02

26 Aug '02

>Message: 1 >From: muller(a)inf.ethz.ch >Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:07:31 +0200 >To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch >Cc: muller(a)inf.ethz.ch >Subject: [Oberon] Native Oberon alpha updated >Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > >An updated Native Oberon alpha version is now available at: > ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Alpha/ > >The detailed changes are listed at: > http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/WebAlpha.html > >All changes up to 24.08.02 are in the downloadable version. >Notably, the Oberon-0 installation diskette now supports >FAT-based installation again, using the completely rewritten >FAT file system (from the Dummies release) of Bernhard Egger. Thank you. >Important things remaining to do for the planned beta release: >o apply remaining updates (NetSystem, Mail, etc.) Where would I find these "update" modules on the ETH server? >o improve installation workflow and documentation >o bring on-line installation documentation in line with new concepts > http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/installA.txt I scanned this text briefly. Even though it mentioned that it would attempt to go directly into the installation procedures and leave the "exceptions" for the end of the text, this is not what I found. I continue to believe that the DOS FAT file install is the least invasive install for new users who have not even SEEN Oberon before and are, therefore, unable to make an informed decision to chose which install they would prefer. Few will dedicate an entire partition inaccessible to their other installed OS without having even seen the OS in question on screen? Creating a multi-OS system and repartioning without damaging existing installs of other OS has become one of the more common causes of users who have trashed their entire hard drive and must reformat and re-install _everything_. >o improve release build tools to make it easier for others to use > >Afterwards we'll start a round of testing and error documentation >and correction, aiming for a release by the end of the year. > >-- Pieter Am downloading the Alpha files now. :-) Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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