March 2005 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re: Re (2): [Oberon] n-o PPP modifications
by John Drake 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

--- easlab(a)absamail.co.za wrote: > > So then trying: System.Free PPPMain ~ == > PPPMain unloaded > > and now it's possible to dial. > I.e. the lock-effect is removed:-- > ]Dial script startedModem off-line, device 0 closed > ] > ]Sending [ATZ] > ]Waiting 10s for [OK] {ATZ||OK} > ]Sending [ATX] > ]Waiting 10s for [OK] {|ATX||OK} > ]Sending [ATM2D 3407501] > ]Waiting 60s for [CONNECT] {|ATM2D 3407501||CONNECT} > ]Calling [PPPMain.StartInst PPP 2nm4nx6x@za] > > but not surprisingly I get:--- > TRAP -14 NIL reference ( 00000CBCH ) (PC Native > 11.10.2001) > PPPMain.StartInst PC = 627 > S = 00000014H > ao = 00000038H > papname = "2nm4nx6x@za" > pappasswd = "... > --------------- > > And that's why I was previously inspecting the > interaction > with the task switching mechanism. > > Truely, I don't think even an in-depth understanding > of PPP will > solve this. > > Apparently with a good/normal session completion, > PPPMain > is removed from the task-loop, but with an 'abort' > it is not. > If so, one would need to know about the task > installation > & deinstallation mechanism of n-o ? > > The CO-laboration [i.e. division of labour, v. each > one working > privately] of n-o is less than optimum -- to envolve > those with > knowledge of the tasking mechanism, but no interest > in using, > hence fixing, the n-o dial-in facilities. > > == Chris Glur. I used Oberon.Tasks in the PacMan game I wrote a few years ago. I noticed when I the main module the task was still "alive". Luckily using Modules.InstallTermHandler you can tell a module to take certain actions when it's unloaded. >From a "cursory" inspection of PPPMain it seems that the following code MIGHT fix the problem: PROCEDURE CleanUp; BEGIN Oberon.Remove(ppp.task); END CleanUp; ..... BEGIN ppp := NIL; LCP.PPPHandleLCPUp:=LCPUp; LCP.PPPHandleLCPDown:=LCPDown; LCP.PPPHandleProtRej:=LCPProtRej; IPCP.PPPHandleIPCPUp:=IPCPUp; IPCP.PPPHandleIPCPDown:=IPCPDown; HDLC.PPPHandleReceive:=Receive; Modules.InstallTermHandler(CleanUp); END PPPMain. Regards, John M. Drake __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/

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Dynamically add content to a panel in BB
by Dan Parnete 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

Hello, I'm trying to understand how to dynamically add content to a panel. In the fallowing code, the AddHandler procedure displays the new added editor, but: - if I use only the panel.Invalidate to redraw the panel, the new editor space is empty. - if I use win.SetContent the editor looks normal and functional, bat there is an Trap 8 ASSERT failed in thread MsgSequencer Module: WMComponents at PC = 13091 Could anybody help me to understand how to manage that? VAR panel: WMStandardComponents.Panel; win: WMComponents.FormWindow; field: WMEditors.Editor; but: WMStandardComponents.Button; PROCEDURE Run*(ptr: PTR): PTR; BEGIN NEW(panel); panel.bounds.SetExtents(200, 200); panel.fillColor.Set(0CCCCCCFFH); panel.takesFocus.Set(TRUE); NEW(but); but.caption.SetAOC("Add"); but.bounds.SetExtents(50,20); but.onClick.Add(AddHandler); panel.AddContent(but); NEW(field); field.tv.showBorder.Set(TRUE); field.tv.borders.Set(WMRectangles.MakeRect(3,3,1,1)); field.bounds.SetExtents(100,20); field.bounds.SetTop(20); field.multiLine.Set(FALSE); field.fillColor.Set(0FFFFFFFFH); field.SetAsString("Hello"); panel.AddContent(field); NEW(win, panel.bounds.GetWidth(), panel.bounds.GetHeight(), FALSE); win.SetContent(panel); WMWindowManager.DefaultAddWindow(win); RETURN NIL END Run; PROCEDURE AddHandler(sender, data: ANY); BEGIN NEW(field); field.tv.showBorder.Set(TRUE); field.tv.borders.Set(WMRectangles.MakeRect(3,3,1,1)); field.bounds.SetExtents(100,20); field.bounds.SetTop(40); field.multiLine.Set(FALSE); field.fillColor.Set(0FFFFFFFFH); field.SetAsString("World"); panel.AddContent(field); (*panel.InvalidateRect(WMRectangles.MakeRect(0,40,100,60));*) panel.Invalidate; (*win.SetContent(panel);*) END AddHandler; Thank you, Dan Parnete

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Re Status of Native Oberon
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

Peter wrote: > > What is the current status of Native Oberon? > > > > Is it orphaned? > > The absence of a reply is effectively an answer, > yes. > > Only lack of time prevents one of us from > collecting improvements and building another > alpha release. A few serious bugs, such as that > in TCP/IP, remain unsolved and many new applications > in Aos are not available in Oberon. With the very > small user population, work on Oberon is a tough > proposition. > > When Aos first appeared viable for the public, > Pieter Muller described the requirements to put > it on an i386. Perhaps work in this direction is > a better investment in the long term. > ?! who makes i386 ? For low-power/portable, ARM seems the route. Who uses oberon on ARM ? Reportedly Wirth made his 'helicopter system' on ARM so I'd expect some support. > What is your objective? Is Aos matured enough yet - how much can it do of: * dial-in, * email, * News, * get http, * wiz-bang text editing like n-o, * file/string/age search, * partitioned files-space to at least the granularity & convenience of n-o IDE partitoning, * view at least *.gif, *.jpg * normal utils: zip, *decode, ......etc. ? == Chris Glur.

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Re (2): [Oberon] n-o PPP modifications
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

Peter, > ---------- 15 minutes later System.ShowTasks == > Oberon PC = 5015 safe 29558585 waiting 28407ms > PPPMain PC = 84 unsafe 0 ready <-------- !! > NetSystem PC = 13426 safe 229587 ready > ---------- After de-lock via Ctrl=Break System.ShowTasks == > Oberon PC = 5015 safe 29978466 waiting 31386ms > NetSystem PC = 13426 safe 229587 ready > Dialer PC = 1630 unsafe 0 ready > > So if you can also reproduce the problem, confirm that > PPPMain is 'still running' in the bad-state. > > I think that relates to 'task switching' ? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> So then trying: System.Free PPPMain ~ == PPPMain unloaded and now it's possible to dial. I.e. the lock-effect is removed:-- ]Dial script startedModem off-line, device 0 closed ] ]Sending [ATZ] ]Waiting 10s for [OK] {ATZ||OK} ]Sending [ATX] ]Waiting 10s for [OK] {|ATX||OK} ]Sending [ATM2D 3407501] ]Waiting 60s for [CONNECT] {|ATM2D 3407501||CONNECT} ]Calling [PPPMain.StartInst PPP 2nm4nx6x@za] but not surprisingly I get:--- TRAP -14 NIL reference ( 00000CBCH ) (PC Native 11.10.2001) PPPMain.StartInst PC = 627 S = 00000014H ao = 00000038H papname = "2nm4nx6x@za" pappasswd = "... --------------- And that's why I was previously inspecting the interaction with the task switching mechanism. Truely, I don't think even an in-depth understanding of PPP will solve this. Apparently with a good/normal session completion, PPPMain is removed from the task-loop, but with an 'abort' it is not. If so, one would need to know about the task installation & deinstallation mechanism of n-o ? The CO-laboration [i.e. division of labour, v. each one working privately] of n-o is less than optimum -- to envolve those with knowledge of the tasking mechanism, but no interest in using, hence fixing, the n-o dial-in facilities. == Chris Glur.

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Re: [Oberon] Oberon-V?
by John Drake 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

--- Felix Friedrich <friedrich(a)gsf.de> wrote: > Yes, there the old efficency problem is also present > since computing the > index means calling a procedure. The basic > principle, however, is the same. > > Felix. Right. But the efficiency problem is only present when you quit thinking "vector math" and start doing "matrix elements". Take your code for mean - sum of squares for a matrix. Array2dRe.MeanSsq PROCEDURE MeanSsq*(VAR s: ARRAY OF ARRAY OF Value; x, y, w, h: Index; VAR mean, ssq: Value ); (* mean and ssq distance of mean by provisional means algorithm *) VAR d: Value; val: Value; i, j: Index; BEGIN Array1dBytes.RangeCheck2(x,y,w,h,LEN(s[0]),LEN(s)); mean := 0; ssq := 0; FOR i := 0 TO h - 1 DO FOR j := 0 TO w - 1 DO val := s[i + y, j + x]; d := val - mean; mean := mean + d / ((i * w + j) + 1); ssq := ssq + d * (val - mean); END END; END MeanSsq; This accesses every element in matrix the normal way. As I'm sure you're aware, the "MultiArrays" package stores everything as a one dimentional vector even if you're using matrices or higher dimensions. Going from this I implemented MeanSsq as a MultiArray proc. PROCEDURE MeanSsq(a : MultiArrays.Array; VAR mean, ssq : REAL); VAR i : LONGINT; d, val : REAL; BEGIN mean := 0; ssq := 0; WITH a : MultiArrays.RealArray DO FOR i := 0 TO a.len - 1 DO val := a.x[i]; d := val - mean; mean := mean + d / (i + 1); ssq := ssq + d * (val - mean); END; END; END MeanSsq; Tests show a 20% speedup over the first procedure. I thought about implementing this the way I saw you implement other CAPO matrix procs where the inner loop passes a row to a vector procedure, but alas I was hurting my braining thinking about it. :) I'd be interested to see how such an implementation would fare speedwise. Anyway, lets say for the sake of argument that we did have vector extensions. Whenever there was code like s[i, j] the vector extensions wouldn't make a difference right? On the other hand there seem to be a lot of places where speedups can be done with the current compiler. I only saw one procedure that used MMX extensions for instance. It's good to have non Intel specific code for portability, but for speed it would be good to have MMX and SSE instructions where the potential speedup justifies it. Regards, John M. Drake P.S. I've been thinking of a fast way to to matrix multiplication the MultiArray way. When I work it out, I'll post it. __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/

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Re: [Oberon] Gadgets for SyntaxConstrainedEditor
by B. Smith-Mannschott 06 Mar '05

06 Mar '05

On Mar 6, 2005, at 12:23, easlab(a)absamail.co.za wrote: > Why should we be punished to pick chars off a keyboard, a-la-1965, > when we could pick structures which are constrained to be syntactically > correct at each stage of the refinement process ? In googling for Syntax-Directed and Structured Editing, I found section 2.3 "Structured Text Editors" of R. Miller's thesis _Lightweight Structure in Text_, which offers some insights into the trade-offs involved. http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~rcm/papers/thesis/ch2.pdf A few (6?) years back I did some thinking along these lines (also hittinug upon using Gadgets as a convenient mechanism for implementing it). I finally dropped that line if inquiry after deciding, in light of what I'd been able to research on the subject, that the gains wouldn't justify costs (in complexity of implementation for example). (Despite this I have to admit that it's an idea that's never quite lost its appeal for me.) YMMV // Ben

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Gadgets for SyntaxConstrainedEditor
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 06 Mar '05

06 Mar '05

Why should we be punished to pick chars off a keyboard, a-la-1965, when we could pick structures which are constrained to be syntactically correct at each stage of the refinement process ? eg. Pick: 'NewSource' and See something like:--- > MODULE NewSource; > > END NewSource. where the 'cursor' is by default at 'NewSource title', and it's possible editing is auto-duplicated at the matching 'END NewSource'. I.e the text is constrained to be snytactically correct. ------------------------ Pick: 'Refine' and See something like:--- > MODULE Sample1; > > *CONST > *TYPE > *VAR > *PROCEDURE > *BEGIN > > END Sample1. where the '*<valid selection>s are conveniently available. ------------------------ Pick: 'VAR' and See something like:--- > MODULE Sample1; > > VAR ? : <current TypeList> ; > > END Sample1. where "?" and <current TypeList> are hi-lit and the cursor is appropriately located. ------------------------ .... Pick: 'PROCEDURE' and See something like:--- > MODULE Sample1; > > VAR i: INTEGER; > > PROCEDURE <ProcID>; > BEGIN > END <ProcID>; > > END Sample1. where the non-creative input is automated... ------------------------ .... Pick: '<Statement>' and See something like:--- > ... > * assignment > * ProcedureCall > *IfStatement > ... ------------------------ Pick: '* assignment' and See something like:--- > *<list of currently valid designators> := <Expression>. .......... Even IF the concept is only viable for 'toy-sources', evolution/refinement could perhaps bootstrap a useful tool ? Reading through Chapter3.Text , Chapter4.Text again, it seems that I for one made a big mistake in not devoting effort to build fluency to use Gadgets. It seems that Gadgets would be ideal for such a SyntaxEditor ? == Chris Glur.

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Re: [Oberon] Status of Native Oberon
by shark＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 04 Mar '05

04 Mar '05

Bernhard, > What is the current status of Native Oberon? > > Is it orphaned? The absence of a reply is effectively an answer, yes. Only lack of time prevents one of us from collecting improvements and building another alpha release. A few serious bugs, such as that in TCP/IP, remain unsolved and many new applications in Aos are not available in Oberon. With the very small user population, work on Oberon is a tough proposition. When Aos first appeared viable for the public, Pieter Muller described the requirements to put it on an i386. Perhaps work in this direction is a better investment in the long term. What is your objective? Regards, Peter http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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Status of Native Oberon
by Treutwein Bernhard 01 Mar '05

01 Mar '05

What is the current status of Native Oberon? Is it orphaned? Both, the next Release and the next Beta are overdue for about two years, and Alpha has not been updated since two years. -- Bernhard Treutwein Bernhard Treutwein (at) verwaltung uni-muenchen de (work) BdT (at) wildwein de (home)

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Status of Native Oberon
by Treutwein Bernhard 01 Mar '05

01 Mar '05

What is the current status of Native Oberon? Is it orphaned? Both, the next Release and the next Beta are overdue for about two years, and Alpha has not been updated since two years. -- Bernhard Treutwein Bernhard Treutwein (at) verwaltung uni-muenchen de (work) BdT (at) wildwein de (home)

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