January 2006 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Functionality vs eye-candy
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 25 Jan '06

25 Jan '06

It's probably a year since I [previously] made this appeal ? Example: it would be good if it was made known how to move files from a N-O box to another 'terminal' via V24. Why shouldn't we get the value of the existing V24's labour ? There is no V24.Tool and the idea that *.Panel should have no *.Tool nor documentation is absurd. Users don't want to use Columbus.Inspect and take a refresher course on Gadgets macro language. So how would we acheive this ? Not in one step but by a process. Analagously to the 'give a man a fish', you move up the productivity heirarchy by 'telling him where to find the address for the information on how to learn to fish'. In our case, mechanisms [eg. a repository where small increments of value-added can accumulate] to successively refine via user contributions. Instead of like hardware degenerating by use, the system [S3 & apps] would be continually refined by user contibutions. The Wiki concept seems to acheive this ? Here's an examples of a naive but usefull user contribution, which represent some hours labour and will be lost [others will have to waste time repeating the effort] since/if no working 'user contibution capture mechanism' exists:----------------------- How to transmit "text" from a N-O textFrame via V24.Panel to another 'terminal' - N-O or other OS:- * Desktops.OpenDoc V24.Panel ~ opens the V24.Panel * Edit the parameters: the default of "1 38400 8 1 none" would be changed to "2 38400 8 1 none", if as usual port 1 was used by the mouse and port 2 by the serial connector - usually for the modem. The other parameters must match the peer [other terminal]. * Try to activate the [Open] button. If the System.Log indicates "Can not open port, error = 1", apparently due to the port being still open from previous [eg. modem dial up activety], activate your 'private utility' which needs to be included in future V24.Mod [next stage of refinement]. Mine looks like: CRGV24Debug.CloseCOM2 == IMPORT SYSTEM, Input, Out, V24; ... PROCEDURE CloseCOM2*; BEGIN Out.String('Close COM2'); V24.Stop(1) END CloseCOM2; (* after CloseCOM2, V24.Panel can open and close port(s), repeatedly. *) ------------ * The text to be transmitted is merely pasted to the V24.Panel 's 'panel' and appears at the peer-terminal ! But if the peer terminal is non-oberon, the line termination is different/problematic. eg. linux > minicom will only have captured the last line. Apparently because of the lack of <LF> all previous lines are overwritten & lost. <other contributers to edit this guess: a-la-Wiki ?> In that case [Unix or M$ peers] use the appropriate ET.Mod commands. eg. to transmit to linux > minicom terminal: mark the textFrame to be pasted and sent and 'do' ET.StoreAscii * to get a file [which you will want to delete later] with suitable line-terminators, which is sent to the peer when it is pasted to the panel. * [Close] button should free-up the ser-port, for eg. re-use by the modem, before closing the V24.Panel . ===== End of naive text transfer description ===== But how do you transfer [bit perfectly] binary files from N-O ?! After setting the parameters via the panel, < V24Gadgets.'cmnd' 'filename'> would be a nice syntax ? It's annoying that it's not clear what the existing: V24Gadgets.SendSRec V24 #Value P4k.Bin ~ does ! Never mind about the technicolour transparencies, lets get some more basic functionality first ? == Chris Glur.

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Re: [Oberon] USB, bloat, LNO, SCSI/IDE
by shark＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 24 Jan '06

24 Jan '06

Chris, cg> [as I understand] SCSI is hot-plugable, do standard PC mother-boards have a SCSI connection ? I recommend you stick with CF; don't waste time trying for USB in NO. ATA is available on the PC system board or expansion board and the CF-IDE adapters are inexpensive. Q- since the advantage of Compact Flash to IDE interface lacks the ability to hot-plug, ...? There are two senses of meaning for "hot-plug". 1. The capacity of the hardware to tolerate connection and disconnection with the power on. The expert at ACS, who sold me the CF-IDE adapter, asked "Do you plug or unplug a disk drive with power on? <No> Then why would you do that to a CF?" Conversely, digital camera users are reported to hot-plug the CF routinely and Josef notes that the power pins are designed for it. 2. (1.) plus auto-mounting and auto-unmounting. This appears to be the meaning in Linux. I do not know of an authority to say which of these senses is absolutely correct but am inclined to use 1. Oberon lacks auto-mounting for all media. If you are willing to possibly shorten the life of the CF a little, it can be operated just as a floppy. CF cards are not expensive. Regards, ... Peter Desktops.OpenDoc http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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New crazy release of Jan. 24, 06
by Ulrike Glavitsch 24 Jan '06

24 Jan '06

Dear BB users, a new crazy-fresh release is available under http://www.bluebottle.ethz.ch/dlcrazy.html and ready for download. Major improvements and additions are: - The menu Develop contains a new item 'GUIPatterns' that documents a set of example programs that show the usage of several GUI elements. The GUI example programs are intended to help developers become familiar with GUI programming in BB. The example programs are made part of the release also. - A new interface for serial ports has been developed (AosSerials.Mod). It allows a uniform management of all types of serial ports. - Two major fixes in the USB related modules: (1) Writing blocks > 16KB is now possible with the USB EHCI Controller. (2) The USB mass storage driver has reduced its memory consumption significantly. More detailed information about the new changes can be found in the change log: http://www.bluebottle.ethz.ch/downloads/crazy/WebAos.html I wish everybody good luck with the new release. Ulla Glavitsch -- Ulrike Glavitsch Eggler Institut für Computersysteme ETH-Zentrum Clausiusstrasse 59 CH-8092 Zürich Tel.: +41 44 632 70 49 Fax : +41 44 632 13 07

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USB, bloat, LNO, SCSI/IDE
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 24 Jan '06

24 Jan '06

A number of related topics: It would be good if the work on USB for BB/Aos could be done so that it could easily be ported to native-oberon. Perhaps also with some convenient test-points/hooks ? The several post against creeping bloat; also in our Wirthian systems was welcome. Yes we must fight bloat ! But related to the kernel, as I understand: if the extra booting capabilities are not required, they need not be linked into the kernel, which will consequently be smaller. Q - are any machines with a BIOS which can boot from a USB-stick, sold yet ? I've previously noted that having LNO available at the same time as N-O on the same machine, could be great; to use the superior text handling facilities of N-O with all the other linux facilities which N-O lacks, like *.ps, *.dpf viewers, a good threaded news reader ..etc. To this end I've been trying to 'recover' my previously working LNO versions. My results further confirm the arguments against creeping bloat, and that 'things get worse instead of better' ! Of my 4 versions of linux, the oldest Slakware is by far the best and fastest for LNO. Newer RedHat6.2 finally manged to be restored, and yet newer Mandrake9 doesn't work, and the 'newest' of the 4: FC1; is the slowest, and I don't want to waste time trying to get it running LNO. I think most of the 'getting worse as time progresses' is caused by the influence of the art-school graduates ? Q- since the advantage of Compact Flash to IDE interface lacks the ability to hot-plug, as a replacement for increasingly unreliable floppies, and [as I understand] SCSI is hot-plugable, do standard PC mother-boards have a SCSI connection ? Thanks for any info, == Chris Glur.

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BB Kernel Size
by Paul Reed 24 Jan '06

24 Jan '06

> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:27:25 -0600 > From: "Aubrey McIntosh" <Aubrey.McIntosh(a)ridgewater.edu> > Subject: Re: AW: [Oberon] USB Boot > With the kernel size growing, does it make sense to produce a boot loader > that writes into protected mode memory? Perhaps this could be an Oberon > language application that has modules such as Modules0 and Files0 > according to the pattern published in the Oberon operating system book, > and uses the BIOS Int 10H for rudimentary file I/O. That is, put an > additional boot layer between the OBL and the Aos<driver>.Bin Indeed. A many-stage boot loader system is what all the other OS's have had to use, as a sensible response to the PC's brain-damaged architecture. I have built a BIOS-based version of the original Oberon which could be pared down to do exactly this. On the other hand, Linux stayed with loading into conventional (real-mode) memory by using a compressed kernel, so that's another possibility. But come on guys, where's the justification for having such a big, monolithic kernel anyway? Didn't Oberon preach small and simple? And that, surely, is what attracts people (like those on this list) to BB and other Oberon-type systems. I know that extra functionality is required to support the many different hardware configurations out there, but I can't help feeling that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater again - I think that BB's drift towards self-inflicted complexity* is, to say the least, disappointing... Paul Reed * Wirth, N. (1995), A Plea for Lean Software, IEEE Computer, February (Vol. 28, No. 2) pp. 64-68

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Re: AW: [Oberon] BB Kernel Size
by Aubrey McIntosh 23 Jan '06

23 Jan '06

-- Aubrey McIntosh, Ph.D. >>> staubesv(a)student.ethz.ch 1/21/2006 10:53 AM >>> Hi, > But come on guys, where's the justification for having such a big, monolithic kernel anyway? I think the question is: Do you want to be able to boot from a USB/network drives, or not? LOL. I do.

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WinAos 2.05
by Felix Friedrich 23 Jan '06

23 Jan '06

Hi all, a new version of WinAos is available. Download at http://www.winaos.de (-> http://www.bluebottle.ethz.ch/WinAos) done: - debugged AosActive.Terminate (and strange Oberon shutdown behaviour) - mouse wheel support for Aos Oberon - removed multiple file listing (Win32.AosWinFS.Mod) - adapted OPT to current version of PCOM, compiling and Browser.ShowDef now works again. IMPORTANT NOTE: There is a new object file format already in use in native Bluebottle. WinAos will also make use of that some later time. This will probably impy that the old OP2 compiler will not work any more. So please already use PC.Compile to compile your sources to be prepared for the new format. In case you make frequent use of the OP2 "WITH .. | ... | ELSE ... " statements, you may convert your files with the Oberon command "OFormatter.RemoveOldStyleWith * ". Felix.

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Data Transport: ppp-inet, USB-flash & CF
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 22 Jan '06

22 Jan '06

2006 Jan 22 > cg> ... in the whole dial/ppp 'thread' ... > Peter E. wrote: > I believe ESC and UnESC should be used in the > Passwords section of NetSystem. PPP would be > more specific than necessary. > Yes I'll fix it in future and report back. > cg> ... an unexpected abort/mis-connection 'leaves > the ser-port in a bad state', ... > > That problem is not connected to the escaping of > the authentication parameters is it? No more than if there's no coal to run the power-station, that you can't "escape-chars 'cos your computer is dead". The whole: V24, dialer, ppp, NetSystem ...are intertwined. Remember you even sent me hard copy re. tasking & interrrupts re. 'need to re-boot to reset unintended state'. > ================ > > cg> did you get N-O to drive USB-flash-memory yet ? > > No. > > N-O has UsbUhci which can operate Intel and VIA > controllers. Other controllers, including the > Agere and NEC here, require Ohci which is in AOS > but not in NO. Considering the time I have spent > on tiny programming issues, the size of AosUsbOhci.Mod > and the time I have available, moving Ohci to N-O > is unrealistic. > > Ref.: Google "site:wikipedia.org usb" > > CF works well in my home and work desktop machines. > Soon it can be tested in the old laptop. The CF > card is smaller than a USB stick and makes data > portable. > OK, that was looking very optimistic until I realised that CF can't 'hot-plug' like fd0 and USB can. OTOH it is especially good since you don't have to worry about the 'ports' becoming obsolete tomorrow, like centronics and RS232. Since I've always got my boxes open with the IDE ribbons accessible [except for notebook] CF would have been ideal, except n-o is inconvenient to power-down - having to pack away a week['s] work. Thanks, == Chris Glur

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Re: [Oberon] BB Kernel Size
by Aubrey McIntosh 20 Jan '06

20 Jan '06

I, at least, would love to have the source to your BIOS based routines. I never did grok how to wrap the BIOS calls from protected mode, and I would study what you did. Can you boot V4 from a USB stick? (I still use and like V4) I have been through the boot sequence in V4 with a lot of attention to detail and made a few custom boot files. I don't have my Oberon system book here (it's in Texas and I'm away teaching 'till May) but I could probably find what I need in the source pretty quickly. I don't know how much drift there has been from then to the current BB loader, but as they are fond of saying, "we have the source." -- Aubrey McIntosh, Ph.D. >>> "Paul Reed" <paulreed(a)paddedcell.com> 1/20/2006 10:42 AM >>> > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:27:25 -0600 > From: "Aubrey McIntosh" <Aubrey.McIntosh(a)ridgewater.edu> > Subject: Re: AW: [Oberon] USB Boot > With the kernel size growing, does it make sense to produce a boot loader > that writes into protected mode memory? Perhaps this could be an Oberon > language application that has modules such as Modules0 and Files0 > according to the pattern published in the Oberon operating system book, > and uses the BIOS Int 10H for rudimentary file I/O. That is, put an > additional boot layer between the OBL and the Aos<driver>.Bin Indeed. A many-stage boot loader system is what all the other OS's have had to use, as a sensible response to the PC's brain-damaged architecture. I have built a BIOS-based version of the original Oberon which could be pared down to do exactly this.

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Re: AW: [Oberon] USB Boot
by Aubrey McIntosh 19 Jan '06

19 Jan '06

With the kernel size growing, does it make sense to produce a boot loader that writes into protected mode memory? Perhaps this could be an Oberon language application that has modules such as Modules0 and Files0 according to the pattern published in the Oberon operating system book, and uses the BIOS Int 10H for rudimentary file I/O. That is, put an additional boot layer between the OBL and the Aos<driver>.Bin -- Aubrey McIntosh, Ph.D. >>> staubesv(a)student.ethz.ch 1/18/2006 5:28 AM >>> Hi, >At that point I read through the source for the linker and boot loader, and I had the impression that the bootloader executed >in real mode, so it only had access to the legacy 640Kb memory limit, and so the linker limit was not so much an >unfortunately chosen constant as a hard engineering constraint. Yes, unfortunetely. I'm still working with an older release where the USB boot file is ~580K (which works). Some tests showed that the boot process will hang at "Oberon loading" if the boot file does not fit into 640K. I'll try to make the USB files somewhat smaller. Things you can do for making it smaller by just re-linking it: - Don't link AosATADisks into AosUSB.Bin - load it later via config string - Don't link all USB host controller drivers into AosUSB.Bin (AosUsbOhci is required for OHCI HC's, AosUsbUhci for UHCI HC's and AosUsbEhci for high-speed transfers (EHCI HC's always have integrated UHCI or OHCI HC's to support low-/fullspeed transfers)). -Set various Debug variables to FALSE Cheers, Sven Stauber

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