March 2006 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re (2): [Oberon] crazy Aos
by shark＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 30 Mar '06

30 Mar '06

Jack, Stephan, j> Try a different VESA mode and see what happens. Tried 640 x 480 x 8 and 640 x 480 x 16; the same black screen resulted. s> Have you tried to burn the ISO-file to CD and boot this CD? No. No CD burner here. s> I think this proceeding is better for tracing erros than installing via ftp, ... I retrieved the files by FTP and copied them to the HDD as instructed in AosInst.Tool. The CD image would also have to be retrieved by FTP. So FTP is needed to get files in both cases. This is not the same as booting through ftp. Never tried that. The zips extracted with no errors. Has anyone else tried the crazy AosIDE.Bin? This machine has an old BIOS. Any chance that the crazy introduced a new dependance on the BIOS? Unless progress happens, will probably reinstall current soon. Thanks for the help fellows, ... Peter E. Desktops.OpenDoc http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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partitioning USB storage
by shark＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 30 Mar '06

30 Mar '06

Hello Sven, You asked for reports on experience with USB. I have a USB storage which was partitioned into two parts by fdisk in Debian Linux. The first part was FAT, the second was Aos. Using what is now the current Aos Partitioner I tried to delete the second part. The partitioner failed and left this message. Operation UID 0: Device is not partitioned. Under "Erros" [sic] was reported "1". "Device is not partitioned" was certainly false. Files had been stored on and retrieved from the Aos part. Saturday, I plugged the stick into a Mac and opened the disk utility. Interestingly, each part had a small lock icon. I set the flag labelled "allow edit" or such. After repartitioning, the locks were open. >From this I speculate that the partition table has provision for locks, that Debian fdisk closes the locks by default and that the Aos Partitioner declines to delete a locked partition. Apologies for not verifying this in the USB/ATA specs and the code. As soon as I have Aos working again, will see how it recognizes the new partition table. Thanks, ... Peter E. Desktops.OpenDoc http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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Just Starting With Oberon2
by Rory Starkweather 30 Mar '06

30 Mar '06

I've been looking at Oberon for a couple of months but didn't find a version that fit my needs until I found the Oxford version. To tell you the truth, I wasn't able to figure out how to do anything useful with the ETH Windows plugin version, and POW didn't run on my system for some reason. There are a couple of questions I would like to ask. (Nothing about programming yet because I'm still on page 10 of the manual.) 1. Is Oberon still being actively developed? 2. How widespread is Oberon use in Europe? I haven't found any Americans who have heard of it yet. 3. Most of the programming I do involves a Visual Basic GUI with DLLs written in either C or D doing the actual work when I need power or speed. As I understand it, the 'virtual machine' interface between compiled Oberon code and the CPU is relatively slow. I don't really care about that, but I'm wondering if there is ever going to be a version of the compiler that produces machine code? Or does Native mode make that unneccessary? 4. Considering item 3, has anyone done any work on a DLLcapability for Oberon that works above the assembly language level?

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Re: Oberon Digest, Vol 30, Issue 24
by Rory L. Starkweather 29 Mar '06

29 Mar '06

I've been looking at the Oberon options for the last few months, and posted a couple of messages here a week or so ago. I had some difficulty deciding on a 'flavor' of Oberon to learn. I corresponded with a few people off list and got some good hints, but I was using Win2KPro and I really couldn't get very far with the packages that are designed for Windows. I looked at BlackBox, POW and Mike Spivey's Oxford version. Unfortunately, the Oxford version was the only one I had any real luck with as far as getting programs written and compiled, it that is the word for it. I have to admit that I didn't give BlackBox much of a chance. Since then I've decided to complicate my life further and switch to Linux, which I have no experience with. My goal is still to learn Oberon, but I think that I will have to spend some time learning Linux before I can go very far. What I need to do now is try to decide on an Oberon package to work with. From reading the messages in the list there seem to be more options than I thought. I would appreciate some input on what YOU would do in this situation. Which system do YOU think has the best chance of becoming a standard. I don't want to end up going down another evolutionary dead-end, like VB 6. I say that VB 6 is an evolutionary dead end because of the compatibility issues with VB.Net. It appears that the VB 6 family is going to die out. I've tried VB.Net, briefly, and it seems less appealing than C++. I would like to try Native Oberon, but, as I mentioned before, I had a lot of trouble figuring out how to do anything with it. The issue wasn't with the number of buttons my mouse had. The concept looked great, but I never found any explicit instructions on how to create what I would call a program. I understand that is not what Oberon calls them. Specifically I needed to know how to save a file that I had created. I just never figured that out. There is a lot of documentation but it seems to me that it makes some assumptions about familiarity with the Oberon-2 interface. I had no problem finding information on how to manipulate widgets, but I didn't ever really understand how to add one to a form. Now I've seem some messages about Zonnon and Component Pascal and Bluebottle. Bluebottle didn't appear to me to be a complete system. Unless I misunderstood, the documentation said it didn't have a browser, for instance. Since it appears that most of the documentation available for some of these offerings is on the web, lack of a browser would seem to a problem. I have some experience with computers and programming, but I would be trying to use a programming language new to me with an operating system new to me. I would appreciate your hearing your thoughts. Rory

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Re: Oberon Digest, Vol 30, Issue 24
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 29 Mar '06

29 Mar '06

Rory L. Starkweather wrote: > I would like to try Native Oberon, but, as I mentioned before, I had a > lot of trouble figuring out how to do anything with it. The issue wasn't > with the number of buttons my mouse had. The concept looked great, but I > never found any explicit instructions on how to create what I would call > a program. I understand that is not what Oberon calls them. The unusual interface which is what's holding you back is NOT oberon but something special about Sysytem3. IMO it's special like riding a bicycle is far superior to the 'normal' walking. But unless your going to 'use it', it may not be worth the learning effort. > Specifically I needed to know how to save a file that I had created. In N-O you can't create a file which is not saved ;-). It's only a file once it's saved. A TextFrame shows you what the file contents looks like. Imagine a cat and possibly multiple mirrors, each of which shows you a part of the cat. The the cat is the file and the mirror[s] is/are TextFrame[s]. You can change the contents of the TextFrame[s] and when you "Store" the TextFrame the corresponding file is updated. Answer my questions, and I'll step you through to compiling and running your first program. [We don't want another ghost in the box aborting prematurely - to be understood by old-time readers ?] Q - what version is indicated as running when you bootup ? Q - can you see an effect by toggling the <F8> key ? One state is 'good' N-O mode, the other is 'bad' aping M$. Q - do you see any TextFrame on your display [ which contains any text] ? Q - can you enter text to any existing TextFrame by positioning the cursor [caret] and ML [click left button] followed by keying in at the caret ? Q - what happens if you MM/RM [mid-mouse hold down while clicking right-mouse] while caret-pointing at any word, any where on the screen - like the word " System.Log " which you should see somewhere ? Q - what happens if you write the word " dog " and MM/RM on it ? If you're using N-O it should open the TextFrame called 'dog'. If you have already got a file called ' dog ' it will open that file in a TextFrame. Else it will open an empty TextFrame called 'dog', which you can edit, and save as a file if you want to. Q - what happens if you MM/RM on the word " V24.Tool " ? Each TextFrame has a "Store" button in the top-bar. This causes the TextFrame to be stored as a file. When you see the 2 word phrase: " System.Directory dog " [either because it already exists, or because you wrote it] and you MM [click mid-mouse] on the first word " System.Directory ", ie. execute the 'System.Directory' command on the argument 'dog', you see if a file named 'dog' already exists. Do this before and after you have created the file: 'dog' " System.DeleteFiles dog ~ " will delete the file. Be carefull to have the argument-list-terminator-sign "~" after dog, else you might delete files named after the "dog". Try executing [MM]: " System.Directory dog*\d " Q - have you got a System.Log track on the left of the display which confirms as you execute each command ? > I just never > figured that out. There is a lot of documentation but it seems to me > that it makes some assumptions about familiarity with the Oberon-2 > interface. I had no problem finding information on how to manipulate > widgets, but I didn't ever really understand how to add one to a form. Once you can use the interface to read & write files, especially with the flash-fast intuitive cutNpaste, you can start flying. == Chris Glur.

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Re (3): [Oberon] crazy Aos
by shark＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 29 Mar '06

29 Mar '06

Ulla, Aubrey's observation is essentially the same as mine. Seems warranted that someone at the ETH retrieve the crazy AosIDE.Bin and the CD image from your server and test them. Thanks Aubrey. Regards, Peter E. Desktops.OpenDoc http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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How does N-O handle this ?
by easlab＠absamail.co.za 29 Mar '06

29 Mar '06

Because I can't afford to 'browse' on line, I need to fetch and save web-pages, for later off-line analysis. Besides I think 'reading on-line' is loutish road-hog-like. With the curse of creeping featurism, N-O's 'browser' can't get the information, and we need a 'full-featured' browser. Using linux > mozilla gives me problems [due to unfamiliarity] and raises some questions: After I've saved and gone off line, I can't view the saved pages. - 'Back' is disabled, - History > pick <the page description> wants to be online. Only after doing "find the list of files created 'recently' ", [another example of the need of date ordered directory, where my N-O script implementation is below here] do I see the a typically saved web-pages; which consist of a <FileName>.html plus a sub-directory of associated typically graphic-files and java-scripts. Q - how do you view save pages with normal browsers ? Q - do normal OS & browsers have facilities to auto-delete the <mailPage>.html PLUS it's companion-dir of eye-candy, or does this garbage just accumulate ? Now for how N-O does it: I've toggled imageFetch off, by: HTMLDocs.SetImages Q - but if it was toggled on, would the image.files be loaded with the names which the server gives them ? Apparerently not, since 'File-name.gif' is not a valid N-O FileName and renaming is needed to avoid FileName collisions in the single SYS: partition file-space. I vaguely remember about a [random via time stamp] renaming file scheme, connected with libraries. Is this how it's done ? Q - And what about deleting the image-files/libraries when the <MainFile>.html is deleted ? Thanks for any info, == Chris Glur. PS. here's my script for generating a 'recency file stack', for eg. when you want to see the list of files which you've been working on 'recently' [also possibly in a limited file space via FileID and/or partition]. SortDateDir [ this 'Tool' has mnemonics + 4 commands ]==> ! System.Directory <dirTemplate>\ft ! mark the dir-listing RX.SetSearch (d d ) X0"."( d d )X1 "." (d d d d ) X2 (~c{~c} ) X3 RX.SetReplace X2 "."X1 "."X0 X3 RX.ReplaceAll * ! mark the re-formatted dir-listing Sort.Sort *\r -------------- And a log of a test run:- System.Directory Legal:Con*\ft == 06.02.2006 22:27:31 Legal:ConCrtAplc 06.02.2006 22:27:31 Legal:ConCrtAplc.Bak 06.02.2006 22:27:31 Legal:CondntAplLapse .... 10.03.2006 12:59:46 Legal:ConstitnlCrt 01.03.2006 04:08:26 Legal:ConstitnlCrt.Bak 16 files >> ----------- Now reorder the date field: mark & step 3 commands [could be done by running the script's commands, but it's more practical to have the script as a 'Tool' with mneumonic lines and manually stepable commands]. RX.SetSearch (d d ) X0"."( d d )X1 "." (d d d d ) X2 (~c{~c} ) X3 RX.SetReplace X2 "."X1 "."X0 X3 RX.ReplaceAll * 2006.02.06 22:27:31 Legal:ConCrtAplc 2006.02.06 22:27:31 Legal:ConCrtAplc.Bak 2006.02.06 22:27:31 Legal:CondntAplLapse .... 2006.03.10 12:59:46 Legal:ConstitnlCrt 2006.03.01 04:08:26 Legal:ConstitnlCrt.Bak 16 files >> ----------- Now mark & reorder the stack, and note the new files on top and the one's not changes since last backup below [backup partitions looses file-dates is an unintended consequence?]: Sort.Sort *\r 16 files 2006.03.10 13:01:00 Legal:CondoneLate 2006.03.10 12:59:46 Legal:ConstitnlCrt 2006.03.01 04:08:26 Legal:ConstitnlCrt.Bak .... 2006.02.06 22:27:31 Legal:ConCrtAplc.Bak 2006.02.06 22:27:31 Legal:ConCrtAplc PSS. N-O's ease of packaging [in a suitabley name TextFile] mnemonics and steppable commands make for an infinitely flexible 'menuing system' which I've never seen acknowledged and I'm wondering if all users are aware of this ? Eg. when I mount my my linux partition, I just pick one from the dozen menued partitions and execute: Configuration.DoText MountLinux where 'MountLinux' looks like: ------- !OFSTools.Mount Linux AosFS IDE0#42 ~ 17 Oct 2005 !OFSTools.Mount Linux AosFS IDE0#17 ~ OFSTools.Mount Linux AosFS IDE0#18 ~ 12 Feb 2006 ! OFSTools.Mount Linux AosFS IDE0#22 ~ ! System.Directory Linux:* ! OFSTools.Unmount Linux ! SmartDir.Directory Linux:*\r 3 ! Linux:SearchTemplate --------- and of the 8 non-blank lines, only one is activated by the script; 4 others are manually available. I have to wonder what productive tricks other N-O users have evolved, which I would benefit from knowing of ? A previous writer inappropriately trivialised 'scripts'. A great power of N-O & Gadgets is the very ability to get quick results by naive programming, because 'it's open and all just below the surface' ? PSSS. Re. fast-naive prototyping, has anyone experience with Nokia series-60 Pyhton facilities ?

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Re: Re (2): [Oberon] crazy Aos
by Aubrey McIntosh 29 Mar '06

29 Mar '06

I downloaded the March 22 crazy release yesterday. From what I can tell, the CD-IDE drive is not accessed after the boot file has been read. Didn't look beyond that. -- Aubrey McIntosh, Ph.D. >>> shark(a)gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 3/28/2006 5:16 PM >>> Jack, Stephan, j> Try a different VESA mode and see what happens. Tried 640 x 480 x 8 and 640 x 480 x 16; the same black screen resulted. s> Have you tried to burn the ISO-file to CD and boot this CD? No. No CD burner here. ... Unless progress happens, will probably reinstall current soon. Thanks for the help fellows, ... Peter E. Desktops.OpenDoc http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/ -- Oberon(a)lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon

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Native Oberon
by jan verhoeven 28 Mar '06

28 Mar '06

In addition to having uploaded one Native Oberon tgz file I also opened a mailinglist at http://groups.google.com/group/nativeoberon People are free to join or submit messages. The subject will be Native Oberon only. If you have difficulties joining the list, send me an E-mail and I will force you to member. You do not need to be a member of the list to be able to post, although in that case, the messages are moderated. Anyone can read the messages. Messages are indexed (and cached) by Google on a regular basis. E-mails can be removed from the archive. Does anyone know how to publish this mailinglist at the Sourceforge site? Sourdeforge may be free of charge, it's also quite slow and tedious. So a Google based mailinglist is easier and faster. -- Met vriendelijke groeten Jan Verhoeven http://fruttenboel.verhoeven272.nl

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Sourceforge
by jan verhoeven 28 Mar '06

28 Mar '06

Today I made a .tar.gz file available on Sourceforge containing the Native Oberon 2.3.6 operating system. I tried to upload two documentation files as well, but somebody seems to have to approve on this. Since this is now a GPL project, I need the sources for 'oberon0.dsk' so that we can make this downloadable as well. -- Met vriendelijke groeten Jan Verhoeven http://fruttenboel.verhoeven272.nl

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