February 2016 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re: [Oberon] RISC.img format
by Paul Reed 14 Feb '16

14 Feb '16

Hi Peter, > ETH PC Native Oberon [...] and FPGA Oberon [have] a b-tree as primary structure of the file system. Both FS are "flat". Both limit > the length of a file name to 31 or 32 characters. They differ > in upper limit on file size or on number of files? Better > algorithms implement the newer FS? The biggest actual difference, and probably the hardest to spot by just comparing the source code, is that the on-disk data structures are different due to the lack of a 16-bit integer type in Oberon-07. What is a LONGINT in Oberon-88, is an INTEGER in Oberon-07 (which is 32-bit). What is an INTEGER in Oberon-88 (which is 16-bit), had to be actually changed (effectively to LONGINT from an Oberon-88 point of view) for the 2013 edition. HTH, Paul

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Astrobe for FPGA
by greim 13 Feb '16

13 Feb '16

Hallo Chris, > > Yes - editing, compiling and uploading are all done on the PC using the > Astrobe IDE. The Oberon source code files on the PC are just text files so > you can use any of your other Windows software development tools (editors, > difference listers, version control systems, grep searches) to maintain > them. The resulting modules (*.rsc files) are dynamically linked on the FPGA > exactly as they are in the full Project Oberon system. > > The core OS modules that I use - Kernel, FileDir, Files and Modules (the > dynamic loader), are identical to the Project Oberon distribution except for > one difference: I have implemented a Files.SetDate function that I call from > the Upload function so that files uploaded from the PC have the same date / > timestamp on the Oberon system. > > As for a 'business model' Astrobe for FPGA RISC5 is free - you'll just have > to register your name and email address to use it: > > http://www.astrobe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=476 > > The downside is that you will get half-a-dozen or so Astrobe-related emails > from me each year ;-) > thats ok, i guess i already got it, because afaik I have a license for ARM... > Support is limited to this mailing list and the Astrobe forum. Anything else > that would create work for me which I am not already doing for myself I > would have to charge for e.g. helping you to get it working on a board that > you have built or purchased for your own or commercial use. An exception > would be for individuals like Magnus (Saanlima) or Enso who were developing > a board specifically aimed at supporting Oberon. I am happy to try and help > them if possible - the only cost to them would be to send me a board to work > with. If Xilinx or Altera was the customer that might be a different story > :) > ok, thats a very fair business model > No Linux version of Astrobe for RISC5 is planned - it requires Windows 7, 8 > or 10. > > If you wanted a Linux version you would be able to use the target system as > long as you had a Linux tool to write the supplied core OS disk image to an > SD Card. You would also need: > > * A Linux text editor to create your Oberon programs > * To port the RISC5 Oberon compiler to Linux. > Gardens Point Component Pascal (GPCP) for JVM might be a good starting > point. It only took a couple of days to port the compiler using GPCP for > .NET > * A Linux terminal emulator that can run at 115200 baud to upload the object > files (*.rsc) to the target. ok, maybe i will make a try with WINE, but i have also Windows in a container on my Linux desktop, i must confess.... > > Sorry - I missed your last question in my previous reply. Yes you can use > the full featured FPGAOberon system as your developing/master system. You > just need a way of transferring the resulting .rsc files from the full > system to your target system. I'll supply a disk image for the full system > as well as the core OS to make sure that the module versions are compatible. > that sounds very elegant... One last question regarding this topic: The timing of the full FPGAOberon is strongly influenced by the CRT refresh rate. Is there any speed/clock-frequency increase with your slim system realized/possible? Best Regards Markus

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(no subject)
by None 09 Feb '16

09 Feb '16

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Re (2): oberonstation questions, ps/2?
by peter＠easthope.ca 08 Feb '16

08 Feb '16

> It's becoming difficult to buy ps2 mouse. Open ebay.com. Put this in the search field. ps/2 mouse -adapter -adapters -cable -connector -converter -convertor -socket Sort: Price + Shipping: lowest first. Search. Here 1145 listings are reported. The first dozen or so mice are under 5 $US. ... Peter E. -- 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 12 Tel +1 360 639 0202 http://easthope.ca/Peter.html Bcc: peter at easthope. ca

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Re: [Oberon] Compiling Original Oberon in (Unix)Aos?
by jwr＠robrts.net 05 Feb '16

05 Feb '16

Hmmm.. There is a key clue (but I still don't fully understand) in Eric Scharff's original message at http://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/2016/008792.html. He mentions both Oberon and Oberon-2, and indicates that there is an "Oberon subsystem" within AOS. Perhaps there is one "Oberon subsystem" when there should be two? One for (original) Oberon, and one for Oberon-2? This would suggest at least THREE contexts (or "subsystems"?) in which code can be compiled: one for AOS, one for Oberon, and one for Oberon-2. There may need to be a different compiler used in each context, and code compiled for or within one context should not be used by code in another context? Perhaps the problem Eric has encountered is related to the contexts for Oberon and Oberon-2 not being sufficiently well defined and separated? Again, I am concerned I misunderstand something very important. Please clarify. -- John Roberts

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FPGA conference Munich, July 2016
by greim 04 Feb '16

04 Feb '16

Hi, there is an FPGA congress in July in Munich. Anybody out there who is brave enough to present FPGA Oberon? http://www.fpga-kongress.de/de/callforpaper Maybe Paul Reed, Victor Yurkovsky or Magnus Karlsson? Regards Markus Greim P.S. I am not involved with the conference in anyway, but I think it would be big chance to make Project Oberon more popular.

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oberonstation questions, ps/2?
by Lars 02 Feb '16

02 Feb '16

Was wondering why PS/2 was chosen for the oberon keyboard and mouse ports when all the keyboards being sold in stores these days are USB. Was ps/2 much simpler to program without complexities of USB ? Drivers easier to write? Do people use USB keyboards with a ps/2 converter? If so, do almost all USB keyboards have the ability to use ps/2 with a converter, or are some USB keyboards USB only, no conversion possible. Also, no HDMI video, DVI? too complex? the svga port is a little bit outdated. Any plans to release an OberonStation version 2.0 or something? Note: I am completely ignorant of the OberonStation. If these questions have already been answered in a book, or on a website (non existant "Wirth Blog" or "Wirth Wiki" or "Spinach Planet") then let me know where to read info.

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Re: [Oberon] Compiling Original Oberon in (Unix)Aos?
by jwr＠robrts.net 02 Feb '16

02 Feb '16

Bernhard: Thank you!! That very much helps me understand. It appears you sent this answer directly to me, and not to the list. Your information appears more widely useful, so I just wish to verify that it was your intention NOT to send it to the list. If so, no action is needed. If not, perhaps forward to the list your original reply to me, with slight edits so it appears to be directly sent to the list. Thank you!! -- John Roberts Quoting Bernhard Treutwein <Bernhard(a)wildwein.de>: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [jwr(a)robrts.net] >> Received: Samstag, 30 Jan. 2016, 22:50 >> To: [oberon(a)lists.inf.ethz.ch] >> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Compiling Original Oberon in (Unix)Aos? >> >> [...] >> >> Please help me understand, I think I misunderstand something critical. >> It sounds to me like this (UnixAOS) distribution is partially >> "broken", > yes it is partially broken, especially the Oberon Subsystem, which was afaik > originally used to bootstrap A2/UnixAos/WinAos. >> in that it is currently in a state different than it would >> be if everything was recompiled from source. Some objects currently >> exist with incompatible object-code formats?! Also it sounds like >> certain source files are written in different (incompatible?) >> "dialects" of the Oberon language. This suggests there is a >> significant possibility that right now the release cannot be >> completely recompiled successfully. > The whole system can be recompiled with the FOX compiler, but the > Oberon subsystem has not be upgraded to use FOX. The two compiler > available in the Oberon subsystem both do not understand name spaces. > > Current state is (at least to my knowledge): Work in progress, and there > is only one or two persons partial time working on it ... > >> >> Recognizing that there is a chicken-and-egg problem regarding >> bootstrapping the compiler(s) [whose solution is well known and >> documented], are the proper procedures documented and available for >> cleanly recompiling everything in UnixAOS from scratch? Has anyone >> recently verified the procedures work properly? Is that useful/Does >> anyone care? > yes the procedures for cleanly recompiling everything are documented > in Build.Tool > and Release.Mod together with Release.Tool. > > I don't know if the orginal way to bootstrap the system from within > Native Oberon > as described in Pieter Mullers and Patrik Realis PhD theses still > work. The Oberon > subsystem has still old compilers (Regis Creliers OP2 & Patrik > Realis PaCo), but > both do neither understand the full current language nor do they produce the > current object file format. > >> Theoretically there should be a file within the distribution which >> describes the exact procedure (with the proper commands listed) to >> recompile everything cleanly and properly. Perhaps not everything >> should be compiled with the same compiler: there may be a set of files >> compiled by the AOS compiler, > see above ... >> another set by Oberon compiler #1, and >> yet another set by Oberon compiler #2, but it should somewhere be very >> clear exactly what to do. >> > afaik, this is missing > -- > Bernhard

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Re: [Oberon] oberonstation questions, ps/2?
by jwr＠robrts.net 02 Feb '16

02 Feb '16

Lars: Yes, your questions have already been answered elsewhere [but perhaps not on this list]. A partial list of sites with many further details is below. However, the essence is exactly as you suggest: a PS/2 interface was deliberately chosen for Project Oberon 2013 because it is a very simple serial interface. A USB interface would involve more code than the entire rest of the system requires (both hardware and software), and would therefore compromise the educational goal of building a system which can be easily understood as a whole. [Perhaps a poor paraphrase on my part, of one of the true goals. See Wirth's "Project Oberon" texts.] For similar reasons, a VGA interface was selected rather than HDMI or other more modern video interface. Regarding your second paragraph concerning USB keyboards/mice with converters, people have had mixed results. Some converter/USB combinations work, some don't, some can even damage the board. Using a "Real" PS/2 mouse is recommended. I saw a thread discussing details which I can't find again quickly right now. Regarding an "OberonStation 2.0" with updated interfaces, we'll see. In the meantime note that the Pipistrello supports an HDMI interface. Monochrome VGA seems to me a current (and very reasonable) limitation of the Project Oberon implementation, which could be changed if an individual or team implements and integrates updated VGA or a full HDMI interface in Lola2 or Verilog (hardware part) and Oberon (software part). The 1Mb memory limitation (for software, data, AND video memory) of most current physical implementations of Project Oberon 2013 is a significant reason that monochrome VGA was selected. For the key resources (documentation and code) for Project Oberon 2013, see: http://www.projectoberon.com/ https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ For details on the OberonStation itself, see: http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ http://oberonstation.x10.mx/smf/index.php http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3496 Of interest, see also the Pipistrello with Oberon Wing, and the Pepino: http://www.saanlima.com/store/ http://saanlima.com/forum/ Chris Burrows has also an "embedded" version targeted by AStrobe for RISC5, which can be used in situations which do not necessarily even have a keyboard, mouse, or video. http://www.astrobe.com/RISC5/default.htm http://www.astrobe.com/forum/index.php I expect other custom implementations will also appear. For some interesting discussions, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10474653 [regarding OberonStation] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10792046 [regarding OberonStation] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8620053 [Project Oberon 2013 edition] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9847955 [Project Oberon] also search google for "project oberon site:news.ycombinator.com" That's probably much more than you wanted for an answer. Sorry to ramble. -- John Roberts

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Acronyms and Versions
by jwr＠robrts.net 01 Feb '16

01 Feb '16

In December I purchased an OberonStation, and am currently trying to understand which implementations of Oberon (in addition to that of Project Oberon 2013) are also valuable to obtain and study. I reviewed the last four years of messages on this list, and am still somewhat confused. Perhaps it is useful to contribute summaries of acronyms and versions which others on this list can help correct and refine. In http://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/2016/008750.html Peter Easthope states “A glossary containing some of these commonly bandied names and acronyms would be helpful.” In http://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/2015/008219.html Dieter Gloetzel says: “Is there anywhere a list of abbreviations? e.g. "LNO" or "OLR". I have difficulties following the discussions.” At http://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/2016/008763.html Srinivas Nayak asks “Which version of Oberon I should look at? Oberon-7 or Active Oberon or Concurrent Oberon or ?” and Bob Walkden answers “Why not look at them all?”. I think it's hard to look at them “all” because there are so many variations, it is difficult to enumerate them. Also it is somewhat unclear which involve versions of the language, which involve versions of the system implementation, which involve different experimental or useful versions of tools and applications, and which are versions identifying distributions for different underlying hardware and OS platforms. It is also difficult to identify which particular ones contain the most useful or most important components to study. Perhaps with help from the experts on this list, we can more fully enumerate the versions, and identify what is unique and useful or special about each one. Here is a summary of acronyms and version names I have gleaned from various messages and sources. Please provide feedback and corrections as appropriate. ALO ARM Linux Oberon (Oberon in LNO family, for ARM CPU eg Raspberry Pi) ETHO ETH Oberon (ETH is Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule Zürich) LEO Linux ETH Oberon [ETHO 2.4.3 for Linux x86] LNO Linux Native Oberon NO Native Oberon OCP Oberon Community Platform OLR Oberon Linux Revival Is ETH-Linux-Oberon the same as LEO or LNO? (Probably it is LEO.) Is Linux-ETH-Oberon the same as LEO? Same as ETH-Linux-Oberon? See https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/2015/007996.html and https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/2008/005410.html BB BlackBox Component Builder, Component Pascal IDE from Oberon Microsystems, http://www.oberon.ch/blackbox.html CP Component Pascal [A dialect in the Oberon family most similar to Oberon-2] AOS Active Object System (2003) UnixAOS Unix-based AOS WinAOS Windows-based AOS Bluebottle New system based on AOS kernel (2005) A2 New system after Bluebottle (2008) See http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/ for AOS/Bluebottle/A2 history Crazy-Fresh Bluebottle [see http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/] Crazy-Fresh A2 [see http://sourceforge.net/projects/a2oberon/files/] ----- The following appear to be versions of the language definition itself. In another message another day I plan to identify documentation for each. Original Oberon (1987/88/90) Revised Oberon (1992) [later called Oberon-07] Oberon-2 is a compatible superset of Revised Oberon (1992) Oberon-07 is a new language based on Oberon and Oberon-SA See http://oberon07.com/ and http://oberon07.com/FAQ.xhtml See https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/Oberon/Oberon07.pdf See https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/Oberon/Oberon07.Report.pdf Project Oberon (1992) Ceres-based NS32032 implementation of Revised Oberon see http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/WirthPubl/ProjectOberon.pdf Project Oberon (2013) FPGA-based RISC5 implementation of Oberon-07 see http://www.projectoberon.com/ and https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ Oakwood Guidelines for Oberon-2 Compiler Developers ----- Other names found for various Oberon implementations and versions include: Oberon S3 = Oberon System 3 (Became ETH Oberon) Oberon V4 (Associated with both ETH and University of Linz) See http://sourceforge.net/projects/oberon/ and http://www.ssw.uni-linz.ac.at/Research/Projects/Oberon.html See http://users.cms.caltech.edu/~cs140/140a/Oberon/system_faq.html for Oberon = V1 ( V2 V4 | System3 ) Oberon V1 [Original Oberon??] Oberon V2 [??] Oberon V4 [Started at ETH, more development at University of Linz] Oberon System3 [Became ETH Oberon] Native Oberon [Based on ETH Oberon] (see http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/downloads/index for current versions) (see http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/archives/systemsarchive/native_new) PC Native Oberon [for Intel-compatible PCs] PC Native Oberon for Dummies [for Windows installation] Linux-based Native Oberon [LNO] SharkOberon [for DEC Shark Network Computers, ARM-based] Native Oberon Alpha [http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/faq/faqnativealfabeta] Native Oberon Beta [see same link as Alpha] Versions at http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/archives/languagearchive/genealogy Oberon Oberon-V Oberon X Active Oberon Oberon-SA Active Oberon for .NET Object Oberon Oberon-2 Concurrent Oberon Action Oberon Oberon-D Component Pascal Versions at http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/genealsys.html not already above SPARC-Oberon MacOberon DEC-Oberon RISC Oberon MS-DOS Oberon Chameleon Oberon HP-Oberon Oberon for Windows Spirit of Oberon Hybrid Oberon Oberon for Linux Oberon Linux PPC more versions named according to supporting OS? ----- I have also seen terms Oberon-0 and Oberon0. Definitions may be: Oberon-0 a particular Oberon language/compiler see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/0 Oberon0 implementation of an Oberon-0 compiler (?) or minimal Oberon system (?) Oberon0.dsk disk image for bootable Oberon0 installer (see http://sourceforge.net/projects/nativeoberon/files/nativeoberon/Oberon0%20b…) Another acronym observed is OP2, which is a Portable Oberon compiler by R Crelier -- John Roberts

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