- Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

(* --- Toolbox of file system *) PROCEDURE *List(name: ARRAY OF CHAR; time, date, size: LONGINT; VAR cont: BOOLEAN); BEGIN INC(count); IF size # MIN(LONGINT) THEN (* changed lines start *) Texts.WriteDate(W, time, date);Texts.WriteString(W, 9X); Texts.WriteInt(W, size, 6); Texts.WriteString(W, 9X); INC(total, size) END; Texts.WriteString(W, name); (* changed lines end *) Texts.WriteLn(W) END List; re: Texts.WriteInt(W, size, 6) The integer value used has been "5" but with Kernel.Mod being over 100K this value must be increased to "6" decimal places to accomodate the larger kernel source code file size integer.

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

(* --- Toolbox of file system *) PROCEDURE *List(name: ARRAY OF CHAR; time, date, size: LONGINT; VAR cont: BOOLEAN); BEGIN INC(count); IF size # MIN(LONGINT) THEN Texts.WriteDate(W, time, date);Texts.WriteString(W, 9X); END; Texts.WriteString(W, name); IF size # MIN(LONGINT) THEN Texts.WriteString(W, 9X); Texts.WriteInt(W, size, 5); INC(total, size) END; Texts.WriteLn(W) END List; Compiler.Compile System.Mod \s~ (reboot) System.Directory *.Tool\d~ Star mark the frame and do: Sort.Sort *\r Which gives you something like this. :-) 71 files use 179KB 16.08.2002 03:46:26 System.Tool 4270 13.08.2002 08:14:17 NetSystem.Tool 2279 13.08.2002 06:09:04 ZipCompile.Tool 558 13.08.2002 06:09:04 Zip.Tool 1896 10.08.2002 06:33:37 Calc.Tool 943 10.08.2002 06:33:35 PictConverters.Tool 584 10.08.2002 06:33:34 Sort.Tool 727 10.08.2002 06:33:34 RX.Tool 2846 >-- Chris Glur. > >PS. Charles, your desire to have 'all instruments always visible' like a >sports aircraft is inappropriate for computing. A 500 page book has >one pair of opposing pages visible at one time. If your desk project >has 3 envelopes, 2 books, 5 documents and a map, then you need to >move them around, from partly coverd to 'focused' as you work. >That's life. A work in progress is a dynamic entity -- until it hopefully >disapears on completion. > >This ability to rapidly shuffle the documents around is intimately >related to the n-o interface. You can't do it wearing boxing-gloves. Code more, philosophize less. Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

(* --- Toolbox of file system *) PROCEDURE *List(name: ARRAY OF CHAR; time, date, size: LONGINT; VAR cont: BOOLEAN); BEGIN INC(count); Texts.WriteString(W, name); IF size # MIN(LONGINT) THEN NL-> Texts.WriteString(W, 0DX); NL-> Texts.WriteString(W, 9X); Texts.WriteDate(W, time, date); NL-> Texts.WriteString(W, 9X); Texts.WriteInt(W, size, 5); INC(total, size) END; Texts.WriteLn(W) END List; Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

stores postings for 2 weeks + and eliminates older postings every Mo. Older matter must be retrieved from archives. Some are listed at the end of http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/support.html The list is probably not exhaustive. Andr Fischer - fischer at inf.ethz.ch ETH Oberon : http://www.oberon.ethz.ch Bluebottle: http://bluebottle.ethz.ch

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

> Support for 4 COM ports in Native Oberon is relatively recent. > According to http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/WebAlpha.html > Andr=E9 Fischer added this on 04.09.01. His changes also allow > the port addresses to be configured arbitrarily. > > You could try fetching V24.Mod and ConfigV24.Mod from: > ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Alpha/Source1.zip > and compiling them, but there might be complications due to new > interfaces that would be non-trivial to address. My modified V24.Obj works with my modem at COM4 now but it is not the interrupt driven version. :-\ Question: Does Andre', or anyone, know of any reason why his Alpha V24.Mod would not work within the Native/Update/Beta 08.12.00 version of Oberon? Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

URL: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Alpha/readme.txt 2. After booting Oberon-0, Install.Tool is opened automatically. It starts with: > Oberon-0 is a small ramdisk-based system > for configuring the real Oberon system. > For an introductory text, move the mouse > cursor to Edit.Open below and click the > middle button (or double-click left). > Edit.Open Introduction.Text 3. After executing Edit.Open above, Introduction.Text is opened. It starts with: > This tutorial introduces the concepts of the Oberon user interface necessary > to continue the installation process. If you are familiar with Oberon, skip it. ... and goes on to explain Oberon concepts like system track, user track, viewer, scroll bar, menu bar, viewer title, scrolling, command execution, text editing, text selection, resizing viewers. and closing viewers. All in about two pages. URL: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Alpha/Build/Build.zip Install.Tool and Introduction.Text ( Edit.Open ^ ) These are simple text documents without large fonts, so that normal TextFrames can be used. Colour and 10pt bold or italic are fine. (They could also be Script documents, with arbitrary fonts, but those fonts would have to be included in the Oberon-0 environment, increasing its memory requirements). 4. Installation continues through steps 1 to 3, documented by the relevant tool texts: Install.Tool, InstallFiles.Tool, Configuration.Tool. ( Edit.Open ^ ) 5. After booting the installed system, the System.Tool is opened automatically with the following at its start: > Script.Open System.Text > click middle mouse button (or double left) > on Script.Open above for introductory text 6. The System.Text starts: > Blue colored parts in this document are Oberon commands. They can be > activated simply by pointing at their beginning with the mouse and > then clicking the middle key (or, if a three button mouse is not > available double click the left key). For example, the Script.Open > UserGuide.Text command can be activated by clicking middle at > Script.Open. It connects to a brief tutorial for new Oberon users. By > its activation, an extra viewer is popped up that can be used, > manipulated and closed again independently. The first link opens the UserGuide.Text, which goes into more detail on operating the system. System.Text documents the configuration of the system, and installation of additional packages. URL: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Alpha/Build/System.zip System.Text and UserGuide.Text ( Script.Open ^ ) The intention is that after reading the documention up to this point carefully, the new user will be able to find his/her way around the system, installing additional packages like Gadgets and Docu, and exploring the documentation there. I find this "documentation path" sensible, even though the contents of the last two documents leaves room for improvement. Suggestions are welcome. Preferably send me edited documents in the same format as the original. BTW The Windows Oberon approach of opening the Gadgets document Distribution.Text automatically is much simpler, but this is not possible in Native Oberon under the restrictions of a single install diskette. -- Pieter P.S. To see how things are progressing with the alpha version, read: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/WebAlpha.html -- Pieter Muller, Computer Systems Institute, ETH Zurich / MCT Lab, Zurich Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

and parts are semi-functional what basis is there for pushing forward into BlueBottle? If BB is built using Native Oberon `parts' the foundation is shakey IMO. Newer faster hardware won't hide the lack of completeness nor will it overcome the need to document and instruct in the use of Oberon. Charles Angelich The Ghost in the Machine! DOS and W31 Tech website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost Stories, poems, music, and photos website: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

"two button hack" as you call it will disappear in new versions. There is a decided prejudice to hold onto the three button mouse as though it was the central nexus of Oberon. I am saying that interest in a three button mouse died off over a decade ago and will turn away as many potential users (or more) than it will attract because it is nonconformist. The harsh attitude to get a three button mouse or leave will finish off those new users who try to work around it leaving ZERO new Oberon users. [...] > So I recall some guy talking about a "new and weird" thing called Oberon > when I was on College (we were using Modula2 that time - hey! it was > 1992!!!), and I thought "It's time to learn that thing". I installed Oberon at approximately that time and when I saw what it was decided I didn't have time for it. That was my _first_ install of Oberon. [...] > I'm not using Oberon to use it the way I always had used other software. > I'm trying hard to use Oberon to learn NEW WAYS to use and write > software. You wouldn't know it but I really do understand this. I do think we've been handed some bad habits by Microsoft and others and anything that can give us a new perspective is a good thing. > I will use Oberon on my comercial life? Probably not (but should be nice > port it to ARM7500 I'm hacking know). But I want to break old bad > habits, and maybe Oberon can help me on it. You may be entirely correct if that is what you want from Oberon you may get just what you want. :-) >> It's also true that if the full compliment of COMs were supported by >> Native/Beta rather than Alpha which not only has incomplete install >> disk image files it apparently can't unzip it's own source code then >> by now I would reading this from within Oberon wouldn't I? > > Yes. You right. > > However, I think there's a reason some code is called "stable", others > are called "Beta", and even more are called "Alpha". > > Newbies should begin with stable versions. I did. I was _told_ to switch to Alpha or I would not have tried an alpha release. I have had to drop back to Native/Beta since Alpha is incomplete in ways I cannot work around. > Man, go play with Oberon/Win32 (or linux) like I'm doing before trying > something Alpha! Use the Learning Curve in your favor, not against you! I'm not really a Linux user nor all that fond of Win32 either. I dabble in both but normally use DOS or W31. >> You prefer to make a newbie responsible for oversight at ETH to >> complete one version before starting another new version. I think >> that is misguided logic. > > I think it's lack of time. Oberon don't have all the coding-force Linux > and *BSD has. Lack of time does not explain the ability to generate multiple unfinished versions plus BlueBottle. The time to create multiple versions would have been better spent completing what had already been started IMO. >> > Else stick to MS. >> >> I get this feedback far too frequently. If you, or any other Oberon >> users continue with these remarks you will be recieving similar >> comments from me in the future. Correct your attitude. > > Pal, if you are getting this kind of feedback so many times, don't > there's a least a little chance the problem isn't in the rest of the > World? Pal, I get this same flack when I point out inconsistencies to the Linux crowd. They don't intimidate me either. Anyone who can only start software and never finish it doesn't intimidate me. > Is just OUR attitude the one must be corrected? If you want Oberon to ever be acceptable to the rest of the world then yes, only YOUR attitude. > I think there is better ways to be understood. Possibly but I'm trying the best way I know how. >> There is no problem with my "views" as they are. I am new to this >> OS and am being sent up blind alleys to find myself blocked by >> one unfinished version after the next then told to buy a special >> mouse or move on.[...] No, they were known to be a work-in-progress and I didn't have the time. > Oberon, AFAIK, is NOT a mainstream project. You can't expect the same > code cohesion you expect from Linux or BSD. There are no POSIX standart > to lay on. There's no old mistakes to be avoided. > > And people make mistakes. It is not a mistake to generate multiple unfinished versions of Oberon then expect a total newbie to find a way to deal with it. It is just wrong. >> I have been disappointed by Native, Native/Alpha, and Native/Beta >> for many reasons and not petty reasons either. > > Yes, I am disappointed with some features from Oberon myself. The lack > of enumerated types among them. But what I can say? I'm not disappointed by a lack of "features" unless you consider being functional/useful a "feature". > "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" ??? Save it, I'm not intimidated enough to care. > If you think the way Oberon is going is that bad, what more else can we > do? "We"? I see no "we" here. >> I am disappointed that text runs off the right side of the screen as >> we debate the need to correct the error. >> I am disappointed that >> ZipTool cannot unzip Source*.Zip files. > > Yes, it is a mess. Maybe a horizontal scrool bar should be implemented? > Who here is so mad with this that are going to fix that? No scroll bar is needed. The right frame needs to be moved to the left (widened). Big deal huh? >> Need I go on? > > Yes. I think the things are driving you mad should be said, you are > plain right on it. At times it sounds more like "go away" to me. >> Anyone familiar with W31 or W9x will tell you cut-n-paste is old news. >> Get over it. > > And anyone who used some flavor of Unix/X-Window will tell YOU MS's > cut-n-past is BAD news. It doesn't require multiple button presses to use it. > There are people who thinks YOUR way of doing things isn't THE BEST way > to do it. I don't own a "way". I'm trying to express one simple fact that everyone is determined to ignore. People don't normally own a three button mouse and aren't going to buy one for an unfinished OS they don't know how to use yet. Life just isn't like that. [...] >> I had cut-n-paste in DOS for all the years I used it by adding a TSR called >> CTRLALT and it was a more global user-friendly cut-n-paste than any I've >> seen since btw. > > It's your opinion, and it is welcomme to me. But isn't the only opinion. You've not tried CTRLALT so, yes, you have to trust me to not lie. It's available from my tech website on the utilities page if you have a DOS to try it with. > In time, when I was in DOS, I used to copy-n-paste using Quaterdeck's > DeskView. And before that, on GEM. Desqview's cut-n-paste was awkward as I recall it. I used CTRLALT. Charles.Angelich DOS the Ghost in the Machine! Family And Friends wepages - Multimedia orginal stories with animation and sound, poetry, music, and photography: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf Tech pages for DOS and W31 at: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

about needed changes and recent updates but they are not available at any location I am aware of. This was my reason for recommending that the notes be linked at the ETH Oberon webpages using <PRE></PRE> HTML until such time as they can be collated, sorted, reformatted or whatever is required to get them into more taditional HTML webpages. The "PRE" means preformatted text and being Courier font looks like dot matrix printouts. Not pretty but people need that information in this same decade, not another millenium. ;-) Charles.Angelich DOS the Ghost in the Machine! Family And Friends wepages - Multimedia orginal stories with animation and sound, poetry, music, and photography: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf Tech pages for DOS and W31 at: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost

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by None 19 Oct '26

19 Oct '26

The listing of available versions of Oberon links to various versions without a great deal of explanation as to why a new user should want one versus the other is confusing. The linking to Native seems inappropriate considering that Native is relatively obsolete. Not that Native/Beta is up-to-date but it would seem a better choice for those who intend to install a loopback (all in one FAT file) Oberon. When reading the documentation pages online each part begins to explain some portion of Oberon then gets sidetracked with exclusions for various versions. New users don't know or care about other versions and certainly don't need to be distracted by exclusions while trying to learn about their version of Oberon. It seems there was no desire to write separate up-to-date documentation for each version so that all versions are crammed together into a confusion of exceptions. Considering the diversity of file formats, and changes of command names I think it would be wise to have separate documentation and leave out all the exclusions? Difficult enough to become comfortable with the use of a two button mouse on a three button OS without being constantly reminded that whatever version you use others probably are using a different version with a different file system and different command modules. I could critique these pages line by line but I think anyone who looks at what is there objectively as a new user they would see what I see? Charles.Angelich DOS the Ghost in the Machine! Family And Friends wepages - Multimedia orginal stories with animation and sound, poetry, music, and photography: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf Tech pages for DOS and W31 at: http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost

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