July 2002 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re: [Oberon] OFSTools.Mount
by Bernhard Treutwein 28 Jul '02

28 Jul '02

Hi Peter, Chris is absolutely correct. I realized that sometimes it is necessary to include also for media, which do not know anything about partitions the partition number (zero of course in this case). I remember also that it does not work in other cases. Therefore it best to try both versions, i.e. OFSTools.Mount <NAME> <FS> <Device>0#0 ~ and OFSTools.Mount <NAME> <FS> <Device>0 ~ Another reason for failing might be that the diskette driver is not (yet) installed. It is worth trying a middle click on: Diskette.Install My (still unfinished) remarks about my struggling into Native Oberon are at http://www.lrz.de/~bernhard/MyExperience.html I can imagine that this story might be of help for other beginners. Any additions and amendments are welcome. regards Bernhard > Message: 1 > From: peter_easthope(a)gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > Cc: peter_easthope(a)gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:10:41 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [Oberon] OFSTools.Mount > Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > In PC Native 23.06.2002 I try to mount a DOS > diskette with "OFSTools.Mount A FatFS Diskette0 ~". > In System.Log this message appears. > A: OFSFATVolumes.New failed > > Can anyone explain this? > > Thanks, Peter E. > > > Peter Easthope > http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/ > [...] > > Message: 6 > From: cglur(a)onwe.co.za > Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 00:09:47 +0200 > To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > Cc: cglur(a)onwe.co.za > Subject: [Oberon] OFSTools.Mount > Reply-To: oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch > > peter_easthope wrote: > > > In PC Native 23.06.2002 I try to mount a DOS > > diskette with " OFSTools.Mount A FatFS Diskette0 ~". > > In System.Log this message appears. > > A: OFSFATVolumes.New failed > > Me too. > OFSTools.Mount A FatFS Diskette0#0 ~ works > SYS: GCAosFS on IDE1#23 (boot) > 106MB of 127MB free > Prev: GCAosFS on IDE1#7 > 111MB of 127MB free > .... > SocEcon: GCAosFS on IDE1#9 > 11MB of 15MB free > A: GCFatFS on Diskette0 > 871KB of 1424KB free > > So OFS.Tool has an error. > Also the naming is inconsistent - a cardinal sin !! > > The <Module>.Tool should correspond to the same <Module>.Command . > Once you break the rules of consistent simplicity, you've started the > slide down to garbage-chaos. > > -- Chris Glur. >

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ODBC in ETH Oberon
by Patrick, Dr. med. Hunziker 28 Jul '02

28 Jul '02

For interaction with the non-Oberon world, I try to use ODBC. Using the ODBC for V4 Modules from Linz on a Mac with the V4 Version, this works. However, I had not much success when trying to use the Modules ODBC, SQL, SQLExt, (and ESQL) in ETH Oberon on Intel (PlugIn 2.4), although I can connect to MSWindows ODBC dlls, and although at least the first 3 compile with minor adaptations. Has anybody done this with success, and how to do it ? If so, would you supply a minimally working example, or a hint, if the Windows ODBC configuration need special attention to that ? Thanks Patrick

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Re: ETH Oberon website
by peter_easthope＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 27 Jul '02

27 Jul '02

Charles Angelich & others, ca> It seems there was no desire to write separate up-to-date documentation for each version so that all versions are crammed together into a confusion of exceptions. Version specific documentation seems desirable but there is another factor involved---human time. I believe the Web documentation is mostly written and edited by one volunteer: Andre Fischer. He has a sizable list of undocumented topics pending. Any coverage of a topic seems preferable to ignoring it in favour of version specific coverage of another topic. Writing or editing a document would help. ca> I could critique these pages line by line but I think anyone who looks at what is there objectively as a new user they would see what I see? Often we can find improvements in style and organization which the orginal author might overlook, even after reviewing his/her work many times. If you find something particularly dissatisfying and are inspired, perhaps you can send Andre a revision. Superficially the ETH might appear to be an "ivory tower" but with experience you will find it is populated with people who are really very perceptive, dedicated and generous. At times they might seem oblivious to a concern of a mortal but later we usually discover that the problem is addressed through vision and a non-obvious plan on a bigger scale. Regards, Peter E. Peter Easthope http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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Re: [Oberon] OFSTools.Mount
by peter_easthope＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 27 Jul '02

27 Jul '02

Chris, cg> OFSTools.Mount A FatFS Diskette0#0 ~ works Thanks. I meant to have tried that but managed to be confused. Still, one of the examples in OFS.Tool (not OFSTools.Tool as you say) is this. OFSTools.Mount A NatFS Diskette0 ~ Regards, p. e. Peter Easthope http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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OFSTools.Mount
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 26 Jul '02

26 Jul '02

peter_easthope wrote: > In PC Native 23.06.2002 I try to mount a DOS > diskette with " OFSTools.Mount A FatFS Diskette0 ~". > In System.Log this message appears. > A: OFSFATVolumes.New failed Me too. OFSTools.Mount A FatFS Diskette0#0 ~ works SYS: GCAosFS on IDE1#23 (boot) 106MB of 127MB free Prev: GCAosFS on IDE1#7 111MB of 127MB free .... SocEcon: GCAosFS on IDE1#9 11MB of 15MB free A: GCFatFS on Diskette0 871KB of 1424KB free So OFS.Tool has an error. Also the naming is inconsistent - a cardinal sin !! The <Module>.Tool should correspond to the same <Module>.Command . Once you break the rules of consistent simplicity, you've started the slide down to garbage-chaos. -- Chris Glur.

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Re: New Oberon users bootstrap improvement project
by Stefan Salewski 26 Jul '02

26 Jul '02

Edgar(a)EdgarSchwarz.de wrote: > Hi, > I followed the discussion about the problems of new Oberon users > for a while. > What's the problem with the existing stuff ? > What do you think of my proposals ? > > Cheers, Edgar > > Hello! I think that there is enough documentation and information to install ETH-Native-Oberon or BlueBottle-Oberon and start using it. I have installed Native-Oberon three years ago for the first time, I think it was not too diffical. A few weeks ago I have installed BlueBottle-Oberon. Was simple too. At each new installation my biggest problem is again and again the danger of destroying the integrity of the other two operating-systems, which resides on my computer, and which I need for my daily work. In spite of the carefully work of Pieter Muller and others at ETH there will be always a little risk if installing ETH-Oberon to a non empty computer. I know there is an ETH-Oberon which runs under Linux, and an ETH-Oberon runnig under Windows too. But I prefer Native-Oberon and BlueBottle-Oberon, both in its own partition runnig absolutly independent of other systems. BlueBottle-Oberon can be started from CD, this is very usefull to test hardware compatibility before trying to install to harddisk. I said that I think that there is enough documentation to install Native-Oberon or Blue-Bottle-Oberon and to start working. But this is only true for people who are willig to invest some time and effords. If we want to increase the number of Oberon-Users outside of ETH, than more good documentsation, accessible without a running Oberon-System, is necessary. Many people prefer to print out complete installation instructions before starting installation. There is very good documentation available at www.oberon.ethz.ch, but this is more for experts already familiar with ETH-Oberon. I regret that there is so few documentation about BlueBottle available. I found only two documents: The language report of Patrik Reali, and a text of Prof. Gutknecht called "Do the fish really need remote control". To gain new users (and developers) outside of ETH, the following may be usefull: - A clear statement of ETH about the planned future of Native-Oberon and BlueBottle. - A text (pdf, html or plain asccii) at www.oberon.ethz.ch describing the basic concepts of ETH-Oberon. -A text (pdf, html or plain asccii) at www.oberon.ethz.ch describing the installation of Native-Oberon and BlueBottle. -A text (pdf, html or plain asccii) at www.oberon.ethz.ch describing the basic usage of Native-Oberon (3-Bottom mouse, commands, ...) -A pdf-version of "The Oberon companion". Even Better, a book like this one dedicated to BlueBottle. I think that the Active-Oberon-Language with BlueBottle-OS is very interesting. But at the same time I fear, that ETH-Oberon will die if the big ETH people like Pieter Muller and Patrik Reali will leave ETH. Best regards Stefan Salewski

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OFSTools.Mount
by peter_easthope＠gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca 26 Jul '02

26 Jul '02

In PC Native 23.06.2002 I try to mount a DOS diskette with "OFSTools.Mount A FatFS Diskette0 ~". In System.Log this message appears. A: OFSFATVolumes.New failed Can anyone explain this? Thanks, Peter E. Peter Easthope http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/

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Minimal hardware requirements
by muller＠inf.ethz.ch 26 Jul '02

26 Jul '02

"Ghost in the Machine" <cangelich(a)famvid.com> wrote: > On my Compaq Presario with Cirrus Logic video I can do 1024x768 but the text > is so small on my little 15" monitor I can barely see it. At 800x600 some of the > toolbar(?) header buttons are offscreen. I'm guessing Oberon developers > have larger monitors and have no problems with 1024x768? This has been addressed in later beta and alpha versions by Paul Reed's modification of TextFrames (see ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Contrib/PaddedCell/) and the addition of a TextDocs.Lib configuration for smaller screens. It is still not optimal, and is one of the many issues to address for the next release. > I've noticed that further development has moved to "BlueBottle" (whatever > that is all about) which requires a minimum of hardware I do not presently > have available for Oberon. More information on Bluebottle is at: http://bluebottle.ethz.ch. It is indeed aimed at more modern hardware (I would say at least: 200MHz Pentium, 32MB, 1024x768x16). For future Native Oberon releases I'd like to continue supporting older hardware. The oldest machine available to me is a 486dx33. Oberon-0 uses 640x480x4, but I don't think anyone would like to work in that mode. 800x600x8 is probably the absolute minimum for Oberon. Is anyone here using Oberon on less than 800x600x8? Or less than a 486dx? (Or would like to?) > When I execute the installed Oberon System 3 native and try to configure the > CD drive I see a note that I cannot use the ATA IDE driver for the CD drive if > I am using ATA IDE for the hard drive. AFAIK the CD is not going to be accessed > in this version of Oberon which means the CD-audio player is kaput. The 2.3.6 release used separate IDE driver modules for hard disk and audio CD (a bad design for historical reasons). The IDE driver was rewritten after that for more modern IDE (ATA) drives, but the audio part of the CD driver has not been done yet. So the beta and alpha versions don't currently support the CDAudio panel. > I was told by Pieter Muller that Alpha supported COM's 1,2,3,4. Support for 4 COM ports in Native Oberon is relatively recent. According to http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/WebAlpha.html André Fischer added this on 04.09.01. His changes also allow the port addresses to be configured arbitrarily. You could try fetching V24.Mod and ConfigV24.Mod from: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Alpha/Source1.zip and compiling them, but there might be complications due to new interfaces that would be non-trivial to address. In that case, waiting for the next alpha version to cleanly support FAT-based installation may be the only option. > I was prepared for this contingency until I discoverd that Alpha > will not install into a FAT file on my hard drive as the earlier > Native will. That was where I stopped. It was begining to feel > all uphill at that point. It is probably possible with the current alpha version, but may be tricky for a newcomer. This will be fixed before the next release. > The `trick' is to not force writing of files in order to operate Oberon and > you could execute it from a CD. If it must open/close configuration files > at any point the CD would fail. We have made bootable CD versions of Native Oberon and Bluebottle. In fact, for Bluebottle this is the primary installation method. -- Pieter -- Pieter Muller, Computer Systems Institute, ETH Zurich / MCT Lab, Zurich Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/

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New Oberon users bootstrap improvement project
by Edgar Schwarz 25 Jul '02

25 Jul '02

Hi, I followed the discussion abaout the problems of new Oberon users for a while. Now my view: - If you successfully have installed an NO you will probably have a tiled system with the following somewhere on your screen: Script.Open System.Text click middle mouse button (or double left) on Script.Open above for introductory text - This should be clear enough. In System.Text you find rather in the beginning: Script.Open UserGuide.Text - This gives you the important hint: <== Click left/right mouse button in bar to scroll up/down. - Perhaps this already should be mentioned in the beginning of System.Text. Another idea for the first page of System.Text could be something like: If you have installed the Gadgets system and Documentation (?) (see below) with Desktops.OpenDoc OberonCompanion.Tool (aka Book.Tool) you can access the electronic version of 'The Oberon Companion', the book on Oberon System3. So, did I describe the status quo correctly ? What's the problem with the existing stuff ? What do you think of my proposals ? I publish this in the mailing list and also in comp.lang.oberon. I would like to move the traffic from the mailinglist to the newsgroup for the following reasons: - There is nearly no traffic in the newsgroup. - In the newsgroup the articles are archived and you easily can follow threads. - The newsgroup is read probably by more people than the mailing list. - My mailserver now wants authentication even if SMTP doesn't require this. So at the moment I can't send mail with Oberon. They want to stop some spam but sadly for me the consequence is that I have to send from Windoof now. BTW, I guess that I could fix this problem in a day. But I don't have this day for this problem at the moment. - I can still post from Oberon. So I admit that I have a selfish reason to advertise the newsgroup :-) Cheers, Edgar

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Continue to fix COM4 modem till success
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 25 Jul '02

25 Jul '02

> Ghost wrote: > > > > > Q: How do I read "Tutorial" and/or "Docu" from either the > > > > > standard interface or Gadgets? > > > > > > > > > As I wrote just 'look' at the file name to open the file. > > > > Some texts need Desktops.OpenDoc ^ (pre-select the file name) > > > > to open in the proper format. > > > > > > I thought I was doing this? I got empty boxes with no text in them. > > > > OK, if the text frame (which shows its name at the left of its menu > > frame) is empty, then it means you have opened a 'null' file. > > I.e. mouse was pointing to a token like "boxes" which is not the > > name of a current file. > > I double clicked to highlight the filename or typed the filename > in then MM'd the command to open and display the file (I > tried both methods). NO !! "double clicked" is Microsoft terminology. (Native) oberon has a small (easy to master) exact vocabulary. Use it. Don't talk MS. eg: SELECT the filename ; EXECUTE the command to open and display the file. > > Well the "Tutorial" and/or "Docu" are just text files the same as > > V24.Mod . If you managed to open and read V24.Mod , then do the > > same with some of the *.Text files. > > Yes, these were my thoughts exactly. Didn't work out that way though. Exactly what did you do ? Exactly what happened. > > Method 1. Eg. use Edit.Open <fileName>.Text , where you > > execute (i.e. Mid-Mouse on the command "Edit.Open") and fill > > in the actual <fileName> as it appears in your directory listing. > > Tried this method. ? and what happened ? ! > > 2. Alternatively (and better - less error prone, time wasting typing), > > you select one or more characters from the begining of the > > <fileName> .Text immediately in your directory listing. > > No need for a wildcard sucha s "*" in there? I don't understand. Wildcard "*" applies (makes sense) for directory listing, but not for opening a specific/unique file. When we write *.html needs Desktops.OpenDoc ^ to be viewed, we mean: "all files with extension 'html' need to use the "Desktops.OpenDoc" command to be viewed - properly (as normally intended)." > > 3. Alternatively (and best) just point at the <fileName> .Text > > in your directory listing (or any appearance of the file name) > > and do: mid-press, right-press, mid-release. > > Did not try this method. Are your fingers OK ? If it takes me 500 msec to do it, can't you spend 50 seconds to try ? BTW do you know how to move and resize the various text frames ? The first time I used Sys 3, I had never used a window, so I couldn't scroll down, in order to read "how to scroll down". It's difficult/discouraging to receive email/advice in another OS, then have to go to n-o to try/test. The following allows you to read your email in n-o; received previously in non-n-o mode. I'm using alpha now, which is different, but my records and memory of pre-alpa are: * save your files (to be viewed later via n-o) in some MSDOS file. eg. c:/oberon.fls/email.725 Best use only alphanumeric chars plus dot for the path and name. * When you are in n-o, you can do eg: DOS.Directory c:/* ~ to see the root dir of your MSDOS file sys. DOS.Directory c:/oberon.fls ~ to see files (for n-o usage) in your MSDOS system. DOS.Copy c:/oberon.fls/email.725 => FileFromDOSpartn ~ to fetch a file from your MSDOS system. System.Directory FileFromDOSpartn\d will confirm and show size Edit.Open FileFromDOSpartn ~ will show funny line terminators ET.OpenAscii FileFromDOSpartn ~ will show - looks better Hex.Open FileFromDOSpartn ~ will allow you to see hex of contents, i.e. also non ascii chars. * And then you'll want to be able to write from n-o to MSDOS: Miscellaneous.MakeDOSText NO2DOS.726 => email.726 ~ This puts the (already created by you) n-o file in MSDOS format, which you can confirm, by looking at it. DOS.Copy email.726 => c:/oberon.fls/email.726 ~ which saves the file to your DOS dir, and is confirmed by: DOS.Directory c:/oberon.fls ---------------- Once you can read and write text files (also to/from DOS) go on to compile and test the simplest source code text file(s), and read various tutorials, until you have patched your machine to use the modem via COM4. -- Chris Glur. PS. how is it possible that you opened, edited and saved the V24.Mod text file, yet you can't open other files ? With my alpha setup: System.Directory System.Text\d ~ shows the System.Text file's current size Edit.Open System.Text ~ shows me the file contentts with line overflow. Desktops.OpenDoc System.Text ~ shows me the file - formatted better. Can you do this ?

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