July 2002 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re: Commercializing Oberon: User Needs
by mcintosh＠vima.austin.tx.us 17 Jul '02

17 Jul '02

I took a minute to look at this site. If I understand it correctly, you have a standard 3.5" floppy that will reboot to install a RAM disk based windows 3.1. One issue here is "privilege" to reboot the machine. The current Oberon architecture allows one CD that addresses both scenarios. Bluebottle perfects this technology in the few files no.exe + aoside.bin and the bootloader. In a chemistry lab setting, where the faculty have control over the computers, the reboot solution may be universally acceptable. I would like to take my Oberon environment to the public library and use it there. The word that I use often is "unobtrusive." It should execute from the CD without starting an "install" program, and it should leave the machine totally clean, i.e., in a "standard configuration," when the user leaves. So the questions for the project are: Do we support unobtrusive? Do we support boot on intel? Do we support boot on G2? Do we support only 1 option in release 1, and more later? "Ghost in the Machine" <cangelich(a)famvid.com> wrote: | > 11. I want to be able to use my familar software environment on a public | > machine that disallows "installs" | | I have a start in _that_ direction also: | http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/html/ph.htm | | The `trick' is to not force writing of files in order to operate Oberon and | you could execute it from a CD. If it must open/close configuration files | at any point the CD would fail. | |

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Re: Commercializing Oberon: User Needs, subdirectories
by mcintosh＠vima.austin.tx.us 17 Jul '02

17 Jul '02

Subdirectories. Let me explore the following user interface scenario. 1. A command of the nature System.Directories eMail/Y02/July/* produces list of file names that the user named and saved from email received in July 2002. Is this the sort of thing you are missing? "Ghost in the Machine" <cangelich(a)famvid.com> wrote: | Having no subdirectories is really not ever going to be acceptable | for daily long term use of Oberon.

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: [Oberon] User friendly & COM:4
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 17 Jul '02

17 Jul '02

Douglas G. Danforth wrote: > I have a goal and that is to take a form of Oberon (currently Native) > and strip it to a "bullet proofed" form that runs on a subset > of PCs so that those who want a reliable small system that gives them > the basic functionality can have one and not worry about the details. > > A subset of PC configurations is necessary since servicing > all possbile combinations of hardware is not possible (at least not by > me or a small group of people). A basic set of: document editor, > email, and web access is all one really needs. The rest of the machine > should be available for your specific applications over which you have > control. > > I would be interesting in hearing from anyone willing to contribute to > discuss the needed support and documentation. In what way does n-o V2.3.6 not meet your requirements ? ----------------- Charles.Angelich wrote: > Right now the `native' version only supports COM1 and COM2. The > Alpha support all four commports but the use of a single large FAT > file for the install of Alpha was never finished. :-\ I just looked at Alpha : V24.Mod which doesn't support all four commports. Else you could just compile it to run under DOSbased 2.3.6. I don't know of any drastic 'discontinuity' between COM1,2 and COM3,4. Of course: IF port = 0 THEN base := 3F8H ELSE base := 2F8H END; is 'oriented' towards selecting one-of-two; but patching the code should not be too difficult ? Problem is, you're potentially messing with the mouse, which will disable your system ! Have you really got 3 serial ports already used ? Or is it just that your second port is wired as COM4 ? -- Chris Glur.

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Re: [Oberon] Dumbing down
by mcintosh＠vima.austin.tx.us 16 Jul '02

16 Jul '02

A long time friend said that the computer has to become an appliance. In acceptance of this, after long thought, I use the language that I have an "appliance" computer and a "lab" computer. The primary difference is whether the case is screwed on, and whether my wife can expect it to behave in "the" standard way without my intervention. An appliance application is an application that "just works." The analogy is to a washing machine at a laundromat. I desire to open the top and add a more or less standard amount of clothes and soap, put in a more or less standard number of coins, and go next door to enjoy coffee and conversation for a predictable amount of time, and have clean clothes on my return. This desire does not in any way imply that I am unable to design molecules that would be good surfactants, and to synthesize them from common materials. Nor does it imply that I am shy about locating where a microswitch should be in a circuit, or building a control loop with pressure sensors and water shutoff valves. But I don't want to change the format of the control panel, decide on which country's currency to use, and evaluate the maximum efficience of twist vs plunge each time I do laundry. I want appliance machines in my kitchen. I want appliance machines in my laboratory. I want appliance software on my computer. For something that is the result of very good engineering, and which was very carefully crafted in manufacture, but which is clearly an appliance, look up iSensor on google. Doug said: | I expect the users of a simple system to be intelligent | and motivated. I don't expect them to be interested | in computer systems but rather interested in applications | where they can "get their work done". To be able to drive | the car, without having to open the hood. |

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Secure Shell (SSH) for Oberon
by muller＠inf.ethz.ch 16 Jul '02

16 Jul '02

Günter Feldmann <fld(a)informatik.uni-bremen.de> has released version 1.0 of his Secure Shell client for Oberon. This has all the functionality of Telnet, but encrypts the communication between the client and server, which now makes Oberon much more attractive as a client system. Günter programmed the cryptography modules as a separate, reusable library, which could be used to make an SSL (secure sockets layer) implementation. The SSH package should work on all recent releases of ETH Oberon. It is available at: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Contrib/SSH/SSH1.0.Arc -- Pieter P.S. There has been a flood of mail on the Oberon list the past few days (which is good to see!). If you would like to receive a daily digest instead of immediate mails, change your settings with the "Edit Options" button at the bottom of: http://www.lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon -- Pieter Muller, Computer Systems Institute, ETH Zurich / MCT Lab, Zurich Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/

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Dumbing down
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 16 Jul '02

16 Jul '02

> Douglas G. Danforth wrote: > > > I have a goal and that is to take a form of Oberon (currently Native) > > > and strip it to a "bullet proofed" form ... > > > In what way does n-o V2.3.6 not meet your requirements ? > > Much too complex for commsumer use. > (I can use it just fine but I'm not an average computer user) > > Oberon has never been "marketed" to the American public. But > in order to do that it must meet some very basic requirements > of simplicity and reliability. A three button mouse will not > be saleable. BlackBox has done a good job in circumventing > mouse interclicks. > "circumventing mouse interclicks" implies that the S3 method is the natural (primitive) first attempt that needs refining !! Dumbing-down has proved a commercial winner, especially in the US. Witness the explosion of the Macdonald, Disney, Microsoft cult. But don't confuse minimalist elegance with crude dumbing down. If Sys3 and/or V4 have been 'modularly designed' as the they should have been, then modification to one button should not be a problem ? Those that need an automatic gear-shift and want to play the piano with one finger must also have their vote. My goldfish also doesn't appreciate Motzart. Different strokes for different folks. But please don't ruin Sys3. Yes the first day, I had discomfort with the mouse. And for quite some time I used to: Edit.Open FileName . But since I've been able to just 'look at and think of open' FileName, I don't want to loose this ability. Recently I had to use MS-word. What a lame turkey ! I've got a marvelous apl. (polog) on linux; but I have to move all the documentation over to n-o, because only there can I 'mark it with my koki pen'. With various colours and fonts, I can structure the text so the concepts jump off the page. BTW you can identify the n-o (or not) users by the mailer they use - to this list, and news groups. Top posting of course, exposures a MS-Win user. As a heavy user of n-o, I'm aware that getting potential users started is not enough to bring them to the level when they might become potential contributors. That's why the 'one fingure idea' might fail to be more than just a temporary fad. There needs to be an upwards path to serious usage. And to get back to the piano metaphor: I'm told "you must start by doing (unpleasant) finger exercises; you can't start by playing one-fingure tunes, and expect to excel". As one has increasing experience with Sys3, it becomes obvious that the 'mousing' has evolved towards optimal usage. This excludes the current disasterous changes (alpha version) which obviously have been introduced to ape MS usage. It would need a tedious analysis to measure the superiority of the Sys3 interface; but how many moves/actions would MSword need to solve this:- You've got a 845 line text file, where the string "Regulation Gazette" appears 17 times. You need to copy/extract from the paragraph start; the text containing the 3rd occurance of "Regulation Gazette", up to the end of the paragraph, which is after the 11th occurance of "Regulation Gazette" and has the string "Entries or Documents". This extract you need to insert immediately, before the first paragraph of FileNo2 which contains "Regulation Gazette". ------------- BTW n-o V2.3.6 became too 'small' for my heavy usage (no file directories) but as I remember it's "bullet proofed". n-o current alpha has serious bugs (not acknowledged - or denied by eth); but the addition of separate file spaces via partitions allows the growth into heavy duty usage and is an imaginative solution. -- Chris Glur.

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Commercializing Oberon: User Needs
by mcintosh＠vima.austin.tx.us 16 Jul '02

16 Jul '02

I expect some resonance from the rest of the community on your answer. If there are other items that should be on this list, I think that it would be good to identify them early. I think that I would identify these as philosophical underpinnings of a project. Cohesiveness at this level is likely to be important over a long time frame. I suspect that we have self-selected to be cohesive at this level. The most successful items that I produced in Oberon appeared exceedingly simple. A friend had made a tar file of several hundred data files and burned it to CD-ROM. It took a half hour to read the CD and locate the file with standard tar utilities of the day. The TarDump program that was once distributed with S3 gave a directory of the tar file in short time, and extracted any given file (with renaming) in a responsive manner. Another item was for my group that answered eMail. I added a scanner that read the directory of pending email, displayed a viewer that contained age, from, and subject, and file name. It allowed any of my group to open the mail. The simplicity and power of cut and paste operations in Oberon was then available. The next item that I wish you, and others, would articulate are some end user needs. Perhaps if you read my examples, then disregard them, we would get a good second list. For example, 1. I want to be able to write my own computer software. 2. I want to write office documents and commit them to paper. 3. I want to write office documents that are used (almost) exclusively on a computer. 4. I want a program that displays the status of my network operations center with hundreds of users, in a easy to comprehend and navigate manner. 5. I want a comprehensive eMail communication program. 6. I want an eMail environment that doesn't deliver spam. 7. I want an eMail server environment where I'm paid for the eMail I "carry" 8. I want a way to distribute music that is embraced by listeners and industry executives (Austin is a music center.) 9. I want an electronic classroom, with instructional and assessment support, confidentiality, authentication (signatures or micro-notary), gradebooks, and groupware support. 10. I want a way to identify consensus, identify areas where discussion may be fruitful, and quantify and direct resource management. 11. I want to be able to use my familar software environment on a public machine that disallows "installs" 12. A file archive (disk backup) program that understands multiple CD-ROM images and version numbers. 13. I want a document that I can open, and it adjusts itself so that it is current and correct when I look at it. --------

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: [Oberon] redirect COM2 to COM4
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 16 Jul '02

16 Jul '02

> > I just looked at Alpha : V24.Mod which doesn't support all four > > commports. Else you could just compile it to run under DOSbased 2.3.6. > > Charles.Angelich wrote: > I was referring to the standalone Alpha available from the FTP server. > I don't recall which "V" it was. V24.Mod is the source code module (file) for the COMx drivers. It starts like this: ----- MODULE V24; (** portable *) (* pjm/ejz *) (** V24/RS232 serial communications interface. *) (* Currently only supports 2 com ports *) IMPORT SYSTEM, Kernel; ....... > > Have you really got 3 serial ports already used ? > > Or is it just that your second port is wired as COM4 ? > > I had need of 1,2,3 and put my modem on COM4. Now that I > have several dozen apps configured for COM4 I really don't > think I want to reconfigure ALL of them to accomodate the > lack of support for COM3 and COM4 in Oberon. I doubt > anyone would reconfigure all that they have just to suit > Oberon or any other OS - or would they? ;-) I don't think you will (can) be using other than the mouse and modem under n-o ? Unless you are in WINx and toggling in and out of DOS-mode, you need to start DOSbased n-o and stay there until you're ready to exit. In this case the extra effort to unplug your device which 'normally' uses COM2, and replace it by the modem should be do-able. I think having the connectors hidden at the back, is a marketing gimick at pretending permanence/stability. Turning the machine 90 degrees allows easy connector swapping. I don't have the documentation here now, but I'm guessing that patching V24.Mod to address COM4 instead of COM2 should be easy. When your machine boots, does it show the addresses of the 4 serial ports ? Compare the values to those in V24.Mod . { Now that you know how to search for "2F8" or "3F8" in the text view of the file V24.Mod } -- Chris Glur.

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need some help for system 3 gadgets
by Yuri M. Skripkah 16 Jul '02

16 Jul '02

Hello! Sorry so I'm disturb, but I'm very newbie. Can anybody give me a pointer, where I can read about linking model to visual gadget(s) in system 3? Model gadgets itself is not visual, and I can't find it in container and set reference. Now I can set reference to model, when add it to existing (selected)visual gadget, but have difficulties change link - I can't see where model gadget is, only in RefFrame in Columbus ( and where is model without any link -deleted?). Is another way to add model, see it and set reference from visual? Thanks. -- Yuri mailto:yurix@i.com.ua

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Re. [Oberon] http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/display.html
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 15 Jul '02

15 Jul '02

peter_easthope(a)gulfnet.sd64.bc.ca wrote: > > What exactly is the purpose of this procedure? > > What is accomplished in each of the three > > statements? > > curBank := bank; > > SYSTEM.PORTOUT(3D8H, CHR(bank)); > > SYSTEM.PORTOUT(3D9H, CHR(bank)) Lisias Toledo wrote > To understand what this do one must understand the way VGA Cards > works and the IBM-PC RealMode addressing. Yes, that's what I mean by top-down analysis/design. But there's an even higher question to ask first: do you want to invest the effort to aquire the background knowledge ? Those coming to n-o computing via, accounting, medicine, psychology, photography have a very different skills set to those who come from electrical engineering & hardware. Do I want to learn japanese to better tune by Katawami product ? The closest to "Hello world" (the minimum observable) for hardware driver exercise, is perhaps exercising the par. port. But to observe/confirm the results you still need a 'voltmeter' and info about the DB25 pin out, or much patience. -- Chris Glur.

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