July 2002 - Oberon - mailman3.inf.ethz.ch

Re.[Oberon] reinstalled hacked V24.Mod
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 24 Jul '02

24 Jul '02

Ghost wrote: > I opend V24.Mod to edit the file and re-save it, so I guess the > answer is yes I do know how to open a file? If you change it before you save it, this would be even more of a test ? > > Try mid-press, right-press, mid-release. > > [...] > > > > Q: How do I read "Tutorial" and/or "Docu" from either the > > > standard interface or Gadgets? > > > > > As I wrote just 'look' at the file name to open the file. > > Some texts need Desktops.OpenDoc ^ (pre-select the file name) > > to open in the proper format. > > I thought I was doing this? I got empty boxes with no text in them. OK, if the text frame (which shows its name at the left of its menu frame) is empty, then it means you have opened a 'null' file. I.e. mouse was pointing to a token like "boxes" which is not the name of a current file. Well the "Tutorial" and/or "Docu" are just text files the same as V24.Mod . If you managed to open and read V24.Mod , then do the same with some of the *.Text files. Method 1. Eg. use Edit.Open <fileName>.Text , where you execute (i.e. Mid-Mouse on the command "Edit.Open") and fill in the actual <fileName> as it appears in your directory listing. 2. Alternatively (and better - less error prone, time wasting typing), you select one or more characters from the begining of the <fileName> .Text immediately in your directory listing. 3. Alternatively (and best) just point at the <fileName> .Text in your directory listing (or any appearance of the file name) and do: mid-press, right-press, mid-release. If the opened text frame's lines 'overflow', then it needs Script.Open ^ or Desktops.OpenDoc ^ instead of Edit.Open ^ ------------------ As I remember some tutorial files are available before you un-archive the main set of tutorials - using the provided de-archiver. Look for something like Arc.Tool - it's different with alpha, and I've forgoten how beta was. Write me direct if you have problems. cglur(a)onwe.co.za -- Chris Glur.

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hardware requirements
by Yuri M. Skripkah 24 Jul '02

24 Jul '02

Hello. I'm in deep sorrow what n-o (and bluebottle) not support wide range of hardware. But really I can't make drivers or donate this work. Because I'll be patient until someone make sort of HAL which can accept windows(tm) drivers or I'll use hosted version. My idea is that oberon system now continued be state of art (research and education) and not the tool for utilization hardware. Is it right? -- Yuri mailto:yurix@i.com.ua

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Re: [Oberon] test/confirm alpha 2001
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 24 Jul '02

24 Jul '02

> >Please, some users of n-o alpha (2001) do the following brief test: > > > >1. Desktops.OpenDoc GfxHowto.html to open in the UserTrack > > > >2. scroll down about 50% > > > >3. Grow to full screen size. > > > >Do you get (like me) ? > > > >TRAP -14 NIL reference ( 00000000H ) (PC Native 11.10.2001) > >TextGadgets.FrameHandler PC = 24235 > > F = 00187520H > > F0 = 00000000H > > L = 00000000H > > M = 00000040H > > M0 = 00000054H > > beg = 0 Felix wrote: > indeed I get the same Trap (Windows Native Oberon), solution: > > In TextGadgets.FrameHandler replace the line > > ELSIF (beg < F.org) (FindStyle(F.text, F.org) # > F.trailer.next.obj) THEN > by > ELSIF (beg < F.org) & (F.trailer # NIL) & (F.trailer.next # NIL) & > (FindStyle(F.text, F.org) # F.trailer.next.obj) THEN Thanks for testing this. Where did you get the patch ? Is it generally known ? Did you ever see my previous complaint(s) about this problem ? Chris Glur.

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Re (3): [Oberon] connect to ISP via dialup PPP with BlueBottle, how ?
by Edgar Schwarz 23 Jul '02

23 Jul '02

Another bounce ... Gérard_Meunier <gmeunier(a)club-internet.fr> wrote: > Would it be possible to get PPPPoE protocol implemented for ADSL connections > too? Sorry, not by me at the moment. I don't have a network at home yet. This would be necessary to test it. E.g. having a PPPoE server on a Linux machine for testing with another machine running Aos. I had a glance at the PPPoE RFC and it seems that the main task would be to replace the layer which goes to the serial port and the dialing by the appropriate Ethernet stuff. If somebody who's comportable with Ethernet programming would like to try it at least I could give some support concerning PPP if there are questions. Otherwise my priorities are on DeltaV (RFC3253) at the moment for collaboration and versioning on the web. If I manage it this should be better than CVS. In this context I have a plea to Peter: If you make a new regular NO release don't forget to include the XML stuff which already is in Bluebottle. Without XML there can't be a DeltaV client for NO. BTW, I will update my homepage concerning DeltaV real soon now. You see, at the weekend I bought a Geforce4200 (Requested by the children) and the result was that my Linux partition didn't boot anymore (Aos was fine). So it had some hours of troubleshooting (Because I maintain my webstuff from Linux) instead of doing something productive. Cheers, Edgar

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reinstalled hacked V24.Mod
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 23 Jul '02

23 Jul '02

Ghost wrote: > > I've reinstalled the /pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/Beta > version of Oberon 3 within a 30 meg FAT16 file on my > C: drive and am using noboot.exe to execute Oberon > from MSDOS v6.22. I didn't know that Beta 081200 had a DOSbased version. You do know that Alpha is newer: 2001 ? I keep on writing that "n-o's problems are not bleeding-edge technology, but trivial mangement/house-keeping details". Still use what you've got to exercise. Value is what you can do; not what you've got. ..... > Now I can't get the compiler to compile the new V24.Mod > and cannot find any text-tool that will read the "Tutorial" > text files nor the "Docu" text files. > Do you know how to open a file by just 'looking' at the name ? Try mid-press, right-press, mid-release. Open this: Compiler.Tool . (F1) positions the star, where you want it opened. Always use successive refinement (in life): compile this 'right here', by selecting (mouse-right) the beginning of the source, and executing: Compiler.Compile @\s (* first source code *) MODULE Ghost1; IMPORT Out; PROCEDURE ExportedCommand*; BEGIN Out.Ln();Out.String("Exported Command") END ExportedCommand; BEGIN Out.String("hello world") END Ghost1. (* ---------------- *) when I compiled this (with alpha), I saw in my System.Log: compiling Ghost1 extended symbol file 47 Now to test/run it execute the exported command of the Ghost1.Obj . Ie. execute: Ghost1.ExportedCommand . mid-pressed, left-pressed, mid-released reloads (re-executes the main block) the Obj-code, as well as the exported procedure. Once you get above the critical mass with n-o, you'll never look back !! > .... > I checked just to be sure - WinZip will not uncompress the > *.Arc files of Oberon. > There will be a tool in the n-o package to do this. Possibly called Arc.Tool > > Q: Is V24.Mod truly a `module' that the kernel loads or must I > recompile the entire kernel to get my changes into the system > for my use? Yes, It's so easy, it shouldn't be allowed. > > Q: How do I read "Tutorial" and/or "Docu" from either the > standard interface or Gadgets? > As I wrote just 'look' at the file name to open the file. Some texts need Desktops.OpenDoc ^ (pre-select the file name) to open in the proper format. > Q: Are there any plain-text versions of this documentation > No plain-text reader can match the convenience of a live n-o system. > > and tutorials that I can read from MSDOS, Windows, etc. > and stop fighting a system I am not familiar with? > Don't fight - just fly. 1. get a running n-o system. 2. know mouse usage: select a text strech reposition text-frames execute various Module.Commands 3. start using: System.Directory ^ with various selections eg: *.Tool *.Text *.Mod *.Obj The tutors will be various *.Text . Perhaps beta has got some *.html - these need Desktops.OpenDoc ^ -- Chris Glur.

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Re: test/confirm alpha 2001
by Peter Easthope 23 Jul '02

23 Jul '02

Chris, PC Native 11.10.2001 here on a 486 yields a trap very similar to that which you reported. These are the first 22 lines. TRAP -14 NIL reference ( 00000000H ) (PC Native 11.10.2001) TextGadgets.FrameHandler PC = 24235 F = 0004B800H F0 = 00000000H L = 00000000H M = 00000040H M0 = 00000054H beg = 0 end = 50 id = 0 pos = 0 style = 00000000H Documents.ToMain PC = 4286 F = 0004B6A0H Fdlink = 00327EC0H M = 00000058H Mdlink = 00327EC0H ox = 0 oy = 0 tx = 0 ty = 0 Documents.Handler PC = 10537 Regards, Peter E. Peter Lyall Easthope 48.7693d N, 123.3053d W, 30 m http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/peter.html

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hardware requirements
by Peter Easthope 23 Jul '02

23 Jul '02

A few days back Pieter asked, pjm> Is anyone here using Oberon on less than 800x600x8? Or less than a 486dx? (Or would like to?) The "oldest" machine I use now is a Toshiba T2100 laptop with a 486 and monochrome VGA. It must seem archaic but is quite functional for taking notes when away from an office setting. What are the advantages in excluding the 386? Alternatively, what are the disadvantages of allowing Oberon to continue to operate on a 386? The analogous questions apply to BlueBottle. Is the requirement of a Pentium processor for a specific technical requirement of the OS or is it simply for a policy of encouraging use of current hardware? Thanks, Peter E. Peter Lyall Easthope 48.7693d N, 123.3053d W, 30 m http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/peter.html

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test/confirm alpha 2001
by cglur＠onwe.co.za 23 Jul '02

23 Jul '02

This bounced last time ? ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- "|/home/mailman/MLM/mail/wrapper post oberon" (expanded from: <oberon(a)inf.ethz.ch>) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please, some users of n-o alpha (2001) do the following brief test: 1. Desktops.OpenDoc GfxHowto.html to open in the UserTrack 2. scroll down about 50% 3. Grow to full screen size. Do you get (like me) ? TRAP -14 NIL reference ( 00000000H ) (PC Native 11.10.2001) TextGadgets.FrameHandler PC = 24235 F = 00187520H F0 = 00000000H L = 00000000H M = 00000040H M0 = 00000054H beg = 0 end = 50 id = 0 pos = 0 style = 00000000H Documents.ToMain PC = 4286 F = 001873C0H Fdlink = 00185500H M = 00000058H Mdlink = 00185500H ox = 0 oy = 0 tx = 0 ty = 0 Documents.Handler PC = 10537 .... Thanks, Chris Glur. PS. This is NOT a GfxHowto.html thing. Other *.html (with live links) also crash. PSS. Ghost in the Machine wrote: > A suggestion would be to unpack all those MODs into > separate files on the FTP server in a directory for that > purpose, one for each ARC or ZIP so that people like > myself can grab just the MOD they need at the time and > not wrestle with entire archives of source just to fix one > MOD? No !! * Source modules are inter-related: by importing each other. * Users who would want to look at and/or modify sources want several. * Going online each time you want to fetch a *.Mod is impractical - uneconomical. * Source1,2,3.zip are all sub-diskette size for 'portability'. * they are also arranged to cluster related-stuff together. * This is another example where the multiple partitions is nice: I keep my Source?.zip and *.Mod in their own partition. V24.Mod and its 'friends' are on Source1.zip. Use Zip.Tool.

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Re: [Oberon] Re: Oberon digest, Vol 1 #20 - 8 msgs
by muller＠inf.ethz.ch 23 Jul '02

23 Jul '02

"Ghost in the Machine" <cangelich(a)famvid.com> wrote: > There might also be problems because the source is in a ZIP'd file > and early versions of Oberon had ARC files? The zip program for older releases is at: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/Update/ZipTool.Arc > I was referring to execute from the CD, not install from the CD. Bluebottle and Native can execute from CD. You get a full Oberon system from where you can use the Partitions.Tool to format a partition and install the system. Or you could just use it directly from the CD and ram disk. In fact, the Oberon install floppy also boots a stripped-down, but otherwise normal Oberon system. > I never specified that the CWD would be global. You've replied to a > statement I never made. Sorry if this was unclear, but I wasn't replying to a statement. I was commenting in general on the issue of a current working directory in Oberon. IMHO the way it has been added in some versions of Oberon with a global current directory is not ideal. > Maybe not but right now I don't think globbing all files into one huge > directory is going to fit in well with real world use of Oberon. It's all a question of organization. I use three Oberon systems ~95% of the time: Native (on Aos), Windows Oberon and Linux Oberon. The latter two have directories (and a global current directory concept), the former has it only for FAT filesystems, which I don't really use day-to-day. I organize my files using .Tool texts (as described in Project Oberon). When I create "throw-away" files I always name them Temp* so I can easily delete them. When I need to search for some file by content I use the Find.Panel, as I would use find/grep on Unix or the Search Files menu on Windows. When I'm working on some project I add Desktops.OpenDoc commands to the System.InitCommands section of Oberon.Text so that these files are automatically opened when I start Oberon. The rest of my project files are all named in Projects.Tool. BTW I don't use the full-screen Gadgets desktop, but the original tiling system, with Gadgets documents. On Windows Oberon and Linux Oberon I never change the current directory, because I invariable forget where I am and make a mess. It is possible to display the current directory in a TextField Gadget using the CurrentDirectory model, but I live without it. > Anyone counting the incompatibilities between the different versions > at the ETH server? Seems only portions of the user-interface are > similar but under that there are some significant differences. This should be improved in new releases towards the end of the year. > Even when an OS is undergoing independent development they usually > at least share identical file system structures. There are some irreconcileable > differences between versions. Linux is a counterexample, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. There are at least three mainstream file systems: ext2, ext3 and ReiserFS. > Are you anticipating losing access to the ETH servers or do you mean > something entirely different? No. I just meant that the research in Prof. Gutknecht's group will be moving on to other topics (as has been happening the last few years) and maintenance of the Oberon system will be done from outside the ETH, but still with their support. That is the main reason why the license has been changed to an open-source BSD-style license. I suspect the same people will continue doing the maintenance, at least for the forseeable future. > FTP uses 4096 blocks when transferring files. I doubt file > size would have a significant affect on efficiency. I'm not sure which blocks you are talking about here. FTP opens a new TCP connection for every file transferred. If you've studied the protocol you'll know the overhead involved. BTW I highly recommend TCP/IP Illustrated Vol 1/2 by Stevens. -- Pieter P.S. Due to a networking problem on the server hosting the mailing list processor, oberon@inf was not accepting mail during the last half day. The problem is resolved now. -- Pieter Muller, Computer Systems Institute, ETH Zurich / MCT Lab, Zurich Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/

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Re (2): [Oberon] connect to ISP via dialup PPP with BlueBottle, how ?
by Edgar Schwarz 21 Jul '02

21 Jul '02

muller(a)inf.ethz.ch wrote: > AFAIK Edgar Schwarz has ported his PPP modules from Native, but I > don't think they are in the release yet since there were problems > with the serial driver latency. Perhaps Edgar can provide the > necessary modules. Edgar, are you here? Yes I'm here :-) I guess I could make a release on the weekend. Mostly I have to add some information how configure it with Bluebottle. BTW, I'm still running Aos 25.3.2002. But I think it also should work with Bluebottle. Like Peter said, with my 500MHz K6-2 I lost bytes using the standard V24 driver. So I switched to a good old interrupt driven variety. Cheers, Edgar

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